2007 New Year's TOA discussion

[LocoColt04]

I have some propositions for the next tournament even though the current one is not yet complete. First of all, if the ideas I have are set into motion, the next tournament would start in January, shortly after the new year (alotting time for anyone on vacation to return, based on responses in December for actual start time).

Now, here's what I have in mind. Animosity between the alliance-based clubs is high. Everyone wants to fight everyone. I was thinking... what if the next tournament reflected this? It would give every club ample time to rally their troops and get in some practice time. Of course, if one club opts out, its positions could be filled by non-affiliated members (i.e. members without club alliance). Either way, allow me to go ahead and lay out what I had in mind.

4 members of the Seekers of Illumination, light-based club.
4 members of the Soldiers of the Moderate, neutral club.
4 members of the Brotherhood of Doom, dark-based club.
4 members of The Masters, an organization of mercenaries.

I've already considered both random draw as well as having each club face its own members so that the best from each club is up against the best from each other... but I decided that the latter takes something away... as does the former. What I have in mind is a 1-2-3-4 type of setup, where one member from each club will be in each bracket. They will be randomized within their specific quarters, so there will still be some randomization to be had, but this way both the first and second rounds would guarantee that no two members from the same organization would face one another until the third round at the earliest. Does that make sense? I would hope so. I can always whip up a sample chart if anyone would like a visual representation.



Keep in mind that this is only an idea -- we do not have to go with this club v. club setup, but I really would like to, if only for this one tournament. It's something that was mentioned a while back, before the current tournament had started, and it's been on my mind ever since. Tournament theme and setting is still completely undecided, and definitely up for discussion, if anyone has some ideas they feel strongly about.

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edit:
NOTES

THE DISCUSSION HAS CHANGED AS PER POST 14. THE CLUB IDEA IS NO LONGER THE FOCAL POINT OF THE DISCUSSION, BUT MAY BE RECONSIDERED LATER.

MAJOR CHANGES TO THE NEW IDEA AS PER POST 19.

FOCAL POINT POST 25.

POST 58, WHAT IS AND IS NOT OFFICIAL AT THIS POINT.

POST 68, EVERYTHING IS FINAL.

[Shiendar]

That's a great idea, Loco. I'm sure that the Brotherhood will go for it, but I am not quite sure about the Seekers. They have too few members almost... but let's see what THEY have to say first. (Toro flog me if I presume too much)

[King Fenii]

It all sounds nice. But keep in mind that some good fighters aren't in Clubs (I presume), so that would automatically mean that they couldn't participate.

I like the whole system, but you need to find a solution for that. And what if one Club can't bring up enough players to fight? Like the Seekers or the Moderates?

You're always sharp Cesar, and this'll probably work. But, just think about the WHAT IF's.

[Dark One]

I like the idea it sound great. I hope to join these year. Well I think the clubs well go for it. I don't have to much to say about it but I like the idea. Well see how it goes. There is still alot of time.

Thanks

[Kaitou]

Originally Posted by IM

I like the whole system, but you need to find a solution for that. And what if one Club can't bring up enough players to fight? Like the Seekers or the Moderates?

Originally Posted by That Ambassador Guy

Of course, if one club opts out, its positions could be filled by non-affiliated members (i.e. members without club alliance).

I'm sure we'll find enough members by January. Of course, only having two active members is a problem.

I really like the idea and will make every attempt to have SoI participate.

[Slim Perfect]

My recommendation is to do two seperate ToA's. One for the club idea, one for others. However, this may cause problems as club members often join normal ToA's. W/e you do I'll be happy. Your call

[LocoColt04]

Well, if all four clubs fill the ranks, then those without alliance will just have to sit this one out. Besides, none of this is official yet -- it's just an idea. I thought it would be a fun idea though, and if that means a handful of writers will have to sit out until next summer, then a handful of writers will have to sit out until next summer.

I'd be against two separate TOAs simply because it would be too much to run. If we're going to do that, we may as well open the brackets up to 32 participants, but I can guarantee that we won't be able to find 32 active participants. I wouldn't doubt that the ranks would fill, but half of the first round fights would be empty.

If we go with the club-based tournament, those without alliance can do one of two things -- seek alliance with one of the four sided clubs and attempt to secure a position on the team, or wait until June for the next open tournament. I won't do a club-based tournament twice in a row. It's just a potential theme for this one.

[Lai]

I think I might actually join next time around if it's open registration. Of course, I'd have to conform to the rules of this forum, but I'm willing to give it a try. Wish House should totally be allowed to join up. We're awesome.

[Mistress Sheena]

Wish House is just a Silent Hill club, not a faction. So.. you guys can't join. Heh.

[LocoColt04]

Err... yeah, to clarify (again) for anyone who doesn't understand the proposed premise of this tournament... it's the light side versus the dark side versus the neutral "side" versus the mercenaries. Like I said in my previous post, if we follow through with this theme, people who are not members of one of the four clubs listed in the first post will not be able to participate, plain and simple.

[Andromeda]

I know I'm not a participate in this, but I thought I would throw out something. Why don't you have a wild card bracket as well. One for all of the people that either do not belong to a club or if there are extras, fight not being affliated in part with their club. That way everyone can still play, but those not part of it won't be left out.

[LocoColt04]

I had considered that, but the only issue would be figuring out exactly how to work it into the brackets. Who gets the bye rounds? How is selecting those who get bye rounds fair? Again, if one of the clubs doesn't prepare a team of four members, its entire position is scrapped and the four openings are fair game to the first applicants to fill the positions. It may be a bit premature to say so, but I'm not really expecting a team from the Soldiers of the Moderate. Too inactive.

At the rate these responses are coming along, I may just scrap the club idea altogether... I'll wait for some more opinions before doing so, but it seems like there are more people without alliance willing to fight than there are people with alliance. Granted, the Brotherhood of Doom and The Masters are raring and ready to go -- perhaps if we call off this club-based TOA, I can hold a smaller tournament between just those two clubs between the end of October and the start of January? Just a new thought to toss in the mix.

[DragonHeart]

Well, why not use the mercenary club as mercenaries? If any club can't fill their ranks with all four team members, use the mercenaries to fill the ranks. That would still leave an open bracket for non-allied participants, and if all the clubs do fill ranks the mercenaries have their own bracket.

Makes sense to me, though I'm not sure how it would work exactly. Just my thoughts on it.

~DragonHeart~

[LocoColt04]

That actually makes sense, allowing the mercs to fill the ranks of the clubs who can't find four willing participants, thus leaving four spots open for wildcards...

However.

Since this is the DISCUSSION thread, I've opted to suddenly change the direction of the discussion. Let's scrap the club versus club idea, at least for now. We may always go back to it later, but honestly it's looking more reasonable to do without it. A current discussion in The Masters club has helped me to realize that there are much better things we can do.

We were talking about potential themes for the next tournament if we scrap the club idea, such as non-human only, and so on and so forth.

Originally Posted by Slim

I would recommend not making it exclusively inhuman characters. Unlike myself, many people prefer playing human characters. I would just leave it OPEN in that sense. It tends to please everyone when it's done that way. It would seem that was one of my problems with the ToA last time, character restrictions. Anyways, of course, do things how you would like to, but I'm absolutely, 100%, obligated to give you my personal opinion on anything. So feel free to ask.

Originally Posted by LocoColt04

Well, I like having SOME kind of theme. A tournament doesn't feel much like a tournament when it's a rag-tag group of characters tossed together and they seemingly have nothing to do with one another. I'm certainly not saying I'm against having character creation be completely open-ended, but all I need is help in thinking up a reason why.

If we can give a reason for the tournament to exist (i.e. provide a story), then anything is technically possible. The only reason I like having a theme in one aspect or another is because it helps tie all the characters together.

In a regular RPB, a participant has an array of characters to choose from, or can create another if willing to best match the environment laid out before him/her.

In a tournament, a participant has to use one character throughout the tournament, thus making some mixes and matches less feasible. It may all be fantasy, but it can be really offsetting all the same.



...and I just had a new idea. Really, all of this should be in that discussion thread in the TOA forum, so I think I'll quote our posts and then move this discussion there, if you don't mind. I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner.

Now, I want all of you to keep something in mind.

The Tournament of Arms is a writing competition, as is always stressed. It's not about which character dodged the most, landed the most hits, or was the healthiest at the end of the round. It's about who the better writer is.

The idea I had in mind was this...

What if, for the next tournament, each competitor is allowed to have UP TO THREE characters available for use? Now, that doesn't mean that each participant would need to have three characters, just that it would be an option.

Of course, like every tournament, there will be a stipulation -- and that will be that at least one of the characters must be a brand new creation solely for this tournament, and must be used in the first round (and can be used as often after that if the writer wishes).

What if we completely scrap the story for the next tournament?

What if we view it entirely as a series of unrelated RPBs which just happen to be for the title of Champion of Arms?

This way, "unlikely" matchups can be sorted out by each of the competitors in his or her own thread. The writers would have full control over locations, weather, and other setting-type options in each and every round.

Of course, TOA rules will still be in effect, which means any of those items listed in the godmodding section of the RPB rules would be restricted -- including the "optional" ones like Blue Magic and summons/pets/etc. But all the same... it would give the writers far more freedom to be in their own element.



Thoughts? I think this is a much better option for the upcoming tournament, especially with all the recent buzz around RPB. We could get some fresh new faces in... and with the optional three character limit, we might even flush out a full bracket of 32 fighters (though, until December comes around, I'm still declaring the limit to be 16... I'd rather have active ranks, you know).

[Slim Perfect]

Originally Posted by DragonHeart

Well, why not use the mercenary club as mercenaries? If any club can't fill their ranks with all four team members, use the mercenaries to fill the ranks. That would still leave an open bracket for non-allied participants, and if all the clubs do fill ranks the mercenaries have their own bracket.

Makes sense to me, though I'm not sure how it would work exactly. Just my thoughts on it.

~DragonHeart~

?

The Masters are the Mercenaries ..... ??

BTW, I wouldn't mind taking on the BoD. Could be fun....

Originally Posted by LocoColt04

That actually makes sense, allowing the mercs to fill the ranks of the clubs who can't find four willing participants, thus leaving four spots open for wildcards...

However.

Since this is the DISCUSSION thread, I've opted to suddenly change the direction of the discussion. Let's scrap the club versus club idea, at least for now. We may always go back to it later, but honestly it's looking more reasonable to do without it. A current discussion in The Masters club has helped me to realize that there are much better things we can do.

We were talking about potential themes for the next tournament if we scrap the club idea, such as non-human only, and so on and so forth.

Now, I want all of you to keep something in mind.

The Tournament of Arms is a writing competition, as is always stressed. It's not about which character dodged the most, landed the most hits, or was the healthiest at the end of the round. It's about who the better writer is.

The idea I had in mind was this...

What if, for the next tournament, each competitor is allowed to have UP TO THREE characters available for use? Now, that doesn't mean that each participant would need to have three characters, just that it would be an option.

Of course, like every tournament, there will be a stipulation -- and that will be that at least one of the characters must be a brand new creation solely for this tournament, and must be used in the first round (and can be used as often after that if the writer wishes).

What if we completely scrap the story for the next tournament?

What if we view it entirely as a series of unrelated RPBs which just happen to be for the title of Champion of Arms?

This way, "unlikely" matchups can be sorted out by each of the competitors in his or her own thread. The writers would have full control over locations, weather, and other setting-type options in each and every round.

Of course, TOA rules will still be in effect, which means any of those items listed in the godmodding section of the RPB rules would be restricted -- including the "optional" ones like Blue Magic and summons/pets/etc. But all the same... it would give the writers far more freedom to be in their own element.



Thoughts? I think this is a much better option for the upcoming tournament, especially with all the recent buzz around RPB. We could get some fresh new faces in... and with the optional three character limit, we might even flush out a full bracket of 32 fighters (though, until December comes around, I'm still declaring the limit to be 16... I'd rather have active ranks, you know).

OMG! BEST IDEA YET! Definately something to think about.

HOWEVER! I would like permission to come up with a storyline or two for the reason behind the combatants entry to said tournament. I just think we shouldn't lose that part of it.

[Kaitou]

An early end for such a great idea.

A small tournament between the BoD and the Masters sounds good, though it would be nice if you could include the other alliance clubs, or at least SoI, ...or perhaps any RP/B club for that matter.

[LocoColt04]

Originally Posted by Slim

HOWEVER! I would like permission to come up with a storyline or two for the reason behind the combatants entry to said tournament. I just think we shouldn't lose that part of it.

As far as the characters themselves know, there wouldn't be a tournament if we went with the new idea. The actual tournament would be entirely writer-side. The characters, buried beneath the fourth wall, would have NO IDEA that they're fighting in a tournament.

This does, however, touch on some concerns that I had prior to posting the idea... and some heavy concerns which DragonHeart has about the new idea.

via xfire --

DragonHeart: The new idea seems interesting, but I'm not sure about the unrelated battles thing. It depends on how everything is set up, like if the battles are instigated by a third party somehow.
[TDS] Argentos: Actually, judges would not be present in any sense. Each round would essentially function like an "open" challenge, except it won't be open at all
[TDS] Argentos: Let the fighters figure out why they're fighting
DragonHeart: That interferes with my sense of logic, I guess. :p My characters generally don't fight someone without an established reason. *shrug*
[TDS] Argentos: I mean, don't get me wrong... threads will still be judged and whatnot, as per usual, but just not in the threads
[TDS] Argentos: Well, I understand that as well
[TDS] Argentos: The pairings will be known going into the rounds though... so whoever gets to the thread first can already have an idea of why he or she might fight the opponent
[TDS] Argentos: But if we just consider all of them to be regular-style RPBs, then that leaves SO much more room for expansion
DragonHeart: I'm not sure I like that idea. It limits any possible storyline by putting it in the hands of one person who won't know anything about the other character's motives and behavior.
[TDS] Argentos: And the only round that will likely be completely awkward would be the first one, where everyone would be forced to use his or her new character
[TDS] Argentos: Well, the point was to get rid of the storyline
[TDS] Argentos: It seems to slow a lot of people down
DragonHeart: It might not be a linear story, but I like to at least have a reason to be fighting.
[TDS] Argentos: Well, like I said, give your character(s) reasons to fight based on each thread and your opponent for each thread. Use the array of character profiles that would be available to concoct a reason.
[TDS] Argentos: Granted, if you post first, you wouldn't know which character you would be facing (outside of that first round, anyway)
DragonHeart: And I point to my Phoenix Knight battle for an example of why I don't like the idea. My character did not behave "naturally". I just don't like the idea of my characters at someone else's mercy.
DragonHeart: That's why I liked the tournament, actually. Someone else sets the scene so there's no character manipulation on either side at the outset.
[TDS] Argentos: A valid point, which is part of why I prefer running storylines, and also why I put it up for discussion in the thread

A valid point indeed. Personally, I'm still in favor of SOME kind of story.

If we could, perhaps, work out a way for the characters to know they're going into a tournament, then we may be able to make this work.

I might take some ideas from an older tournament in a few moments.

First, however, I'd like to touch on one other thing --

Originally Posted by Kaitou

An early end for such a great idea.

Not necessarily. Though the cap may still be at 16, and though the registration will likely be open to everyone, I can still set up one half of the brackets with members of opposing clubs facing one another and the other half randomly. At least this way, we won't have to worry about whether a club gets full participation or any of that stuff.

And like I edited into the first post, we may always go back to that instead.

Hence the discussion.

[Mistress Sheena]

Yeah, there has to be some happy medium between storylines and straight out battles.

There's a character I want to try out. Albeit she's from a different forum and a .hack//RP, but nonetheless I wanna try her out. She's the first Bo staff user I ever made, so I think she'll be that 'new' character. The RP hasn't started yet, so it's not like I've actually used her yet.

And there's one other character I would like to dust off and use, although slightly modified. And for character number three, I'm not sure... I may bring one of my Soul Calibur 3 characters to life, lmao.

I mean, all I really need to fight with my characters is a setting and an opponent. I could care less about a story, but one doesn't hurt.

And it'd be interesting to see how my .hack//Character could 'come to life' and fight. Haha.

[LocoColt04]

Hmmm.

My brain is going in overdrive, you guys have no idea.

I was thinking of bringing back an idea from an old tournament. And I mean old. Old like, last one there was before Psychosyd left and handed the tournament's reigns over to me. Old like, before most of you were members.



In that tournament, the judges had supreme magical powers; godlike, you might say. With these powers, the judges would warp each competitor into a new environment for each round. Because of that, the writers themselves were actually able to create that "new environment" by being the first person to post in his or her thread.

The judges pulled fighters from all over the galaxy as well as alternate dimensions to a single point, housing them until it was their turn to fight, and shipping the losers back home. It truly was a tournament of the "best fighters in the universe." Such immense magical power made such a rag-tag bunch of characters possible. I, myself, used a Valkyrie. I fought vampires, monsters, and all kinds of other mystical creations.

There was actually one round where Indigo and I took advantage of having full environmental control by turning our environment into a realm which warped according to the inhabitants' minds. With every other post, we changed the environment, moving from burning bridges to mountaintops to rooms with no light -- you get the idea. It was fun. A bit sloppy, but fun.



I still like the idea of giving participants the option of having multiple characters. What if we scrap three and require two? (As opposed to making two optional.) If we do this, I'll also scrap the requirement that one character must be created solely for the tournament.

Here's how I think we could make this work.

Each writer chooses two characters that know one another (this is important). These characters have no idea they're going into a tournament PRIOR TO ABDUCTION. I'll take a page from tournaments past and the characters can know they're in a fighting tournament once they arrive at the site. Each pair of characters will receive a large room to live in for the duration of the tournament. With each round that goes by, the writer must alternate between characters. It's only one character per fight, granted, but the characters would have to swap between rounds.

In theory, while making the assumption that you, the writer, will go to the finals, you would want to use the character you're more comfortable with in the second and fourth rounds, as those would be the quarterfinals and finals.

As for fighting environment... we could settle upon some sort of massive battle arena type of setup (i.e. Colosseum, but futuristic?), or we could allow for freestyle environment control as per judge-warp. Personally I'm leaning a bit more toward the Colosseum, just for continuity, but it's up for debate.



With this, not only would we have a base story to give the fighters a reason to battle, but could open up doors for a slew of sub-stories involving each writer's pair of characters.

[Mistress Sheena]

Okay. Scrap my .hack//Character and my SC3 character. Now I have two characters to dust off and re-use. Because they really know each other. One is the sensei and the other is the student.

Ideas are already stirring in my mind right now of what would happen when they got re-united at the tournament. Maybe they'll even develop further through this tournament.

Mitsu Kana and Otenaki Kage, at your service. (Surname first.)

And I don't mind fighting in a Colisseum. The walls would prove useful.