Black Sabbath were more influential than Bob Dylan.

[Lover Boy]

Do you think that without Hugh Hefner, porn would be the way it is today? No. Why? Because all Hef did was be the first real person to get porn distributed across America. I mean, people argue up and down that Hustler, or OMIGODBIGTITS Monthly are better magazines, but Hef gets the respect because he did it first. Not better, but first.

Like Neil Armstrong. If he didn't touch the moon first, Buzz Aldrin would have. Would have been just as influential, except now we would know Buzz Aldrin's name instead of Neil Armstrong.

Can't think of the guy who made Hustler's name, can you?

Sabbath is the same way. They are not influential because they were first, that is a horrible point to make.

And saying that Sabbath was more influential than Dylan is just dumb. I am not even defending Dylan as a musician, but he just influenced more musical development. Outside of America and those cold ass European nations that no one gives a **** about, there's no Sabbath influence. I could go to ****ing Africa, or India, and they would know Bob ****ing Dylan.

And detaching lyrics from songs is just ****ing retarded. Sure a song can stand on it's own as an instrumental, but then it isn't a song, it's an instrumental.


Song N.

1. Music.
1. A brief composition written or adapted for singing.
2. The act or art of singing: broke into song.

Written or adapted for.... singing... well shit. So it seems without singing, and without lyrics, you don't have a ****ing song to begin with.

Instrumental N.

1. Music.
1. Performed on or written for an instrument.

[Sasquatch]

Aww man, the good stuff was deleted. Anyway, the jist of it was that it's stupid to try to make special rules for your own threads, as you have no authoriy to enforce any of them, they don't matter at all, nobody cares about them, and they may even encourage what you disagree with.

Originally Posted by Lover Boy

Can't think of the guy who made Hustler's name, can you?

Larry Flint.

And detaching lyrics from songs is just ****ing retarded. Sure a song can stand on it's own as an instrumental, but then it isn't a song, it's an instrumental.

Very true. Saying lyrics aren't part of a song is like saying an engine isn't part of a car.

I would definitely have to go for Dylan on this one. And I'm not a fan of either of 'em. Sure, Sabbath influenced music, specifically one genre, but Dylan had much more of an effect on music as a whole. There were plenty of "metal" bands in the making, the only reason Sabbath gets the recognition, as Lover Boy said, is that they were the first to make it big. If they didn't exist, that recognition would go to whatever other "metal" band came after them.

[The Waking Child]

What? There were metal bands before or forming around 1969? No. Sabbath were the first. Metal was not forming, and never would have without Sabbath.

No other band downtuned and distorted like they did until they did.

The thing is, to say that Sabbath are not well known world wide would be stupid. Any developed country has many bands that are in the Sabbath vein of doom metal. Russia even has doom metal bands, and what? They had been out of the cultural loop for something like 50 years.

Thing is though, when you listen to genres that have higher focus on musicianship such a metal the lyrics do not matter. It is the music that does, sure most bands use a vocalist, but they are no where near as important as the music actually being played.

I would not really expect people that listen to vocally based music to understand. Though, I won't make such assumptions that you listen to vocally based music, even if chances are that you do.

[Sasquatch]

Originally Posted by Sir David

Thing is though, when you listen to genres that have higher focus on musicianship such a metal the lyrics do not matter.

You can't honestly tell me that the average metal "musician" is more talented than the average "musician" for any other genre.

[The Waking Child]

It depends on the genre of metal, if I'm speaking of black metal I can not say that. I could say that they are much better song writers but not musicians.

If I were to speak of Progressive metal, death metal,or power metal, I sure as hell could.

Death metal is seeing an extreme rise in technicality requirements, infact you will be very hard pressed to find a guitarist in a rock band that could play something by Gorod, Benighted, or Gory Blister.

On average, the best guitarists come from metal. The best bassists from jazz. The best drummers from Latin music, and the best keyboardists from err, I have no idea, Prog. Rock.

[Daddy]

Best guitarists coming from metal? No.
Ever seen some modern jazz? Now that is skill (most is improvised) - not pre-concieved ideas like most shit is in today's metal.
Infact, the best guitarists can play multiple genres of music. For example, the world record holder for the longest guitar marathon (42 hours) played 800 songs from 14 different genres of music. That is talent.

[The Waking Child]

I'm saying on average. The best guitarists are more and more coming from metal. Sure "the best" are not going to come from metal, considering that Steve Vai is not a metal guitarist, and sure there are going to be a few jazz guitarists better than some metal guitarists, but on average metal guitarists are becoming much more technically proficient and pushing the boundaries of technicality and extremity all in one stride.

[Sasquatch]

Hahahah. The best musicians come from metal, that's a good one. And metal has much better song writing? You're hilarious. ... You're not serious, right?

"Technicallity" isn't "skill". Figuring out the "best" ways to distort electric instruments doesn't have anything to do with actually playing the instrument -- I could take the few riffs and chords I've learned and sound damn good if I had 'em sent through enough monitors.

You give a metal guitarist an accoustic guitar, and watch them flounder.

EDIT: Yes, they're pushing the boundaries. Nothing else sucks as bad as some metal does.

[The Waking Child]

You are obviously not an objective poster who has listened to real metal, so I will ignore you from now on.

But before I do that, listen to Necrophagist and shut the **** up. If you still think that it is just a few chords being played and filtered than you are ****ing confused.

[Leviathan]

Sir David is right, Necrophagist are extremely talented.

and also listen to some Immortal they use acoustic guitars or at least 'clean' guitars quite a lot of the time.

Nile use acoustic guitars.

You know nothing sasquatch.

Originally Posted by Daddy

Best guitarists coming from metal? No.

Originally Posted by Sir David

I'm saying on average.

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

Hahahah. The best musicians come from metal, that's a good one. And metal has much better song writing? You're hilarious. ... You're not serious, right?

HE DID SAY ON AVERAGE, if you'd care to read you're message, before posting.


And what Sir David is saying is true, metal is a very hard genre to be great at playing, bands we've championed already such as Necrophagist shit on most music you listen to in terms of talent, speed, technicality, and musicianship.

I can play just about any style on drums (obviously there are a lot of exceptions in terms of individual songs) whether it be black metal, thrash, emo, power metal, death metal, black metal, hardcore, nu-metal, rap, hip-hop, dance, jazz, funk, latin, trance, house etc etc

Jazz, Death Metal and Latin (obviously depending on the songs) IN GENERAL are harder to play, whether it be to odd timing, speed and intensity or technicality.

[Sasquatch]

Originally Posted by Sir David

But before I do that, listen to Necrophagist and shut the **** up. If you still think that it is just a few chords being played and filtered than you are ****ing confused.

You list one band? I'm saying that in general, "musicians" that play metal "music" are no more talented than those that play any other genres -- in fact, I'd say they're generally less talented, as a whole -- at least from what I've heard. And I've heard much more than I've wanted to. And neither of you (Sir David, Leviathan) have any idea what kinds of music I listen to.

And while I'm at it...

Originally Posted by Leviathan

HE DID SAY ON AVERAGE, if you'd care to read you're message, before posting.

His "on average" was referring to Daddy's quote concerning guitarists. Let's look again at what Sir David has to say about the best musicians coming from metal, shall we? Apparently, you didn't see it the first time.

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

You can't honestly tell me that the average metal "musician" is more talented than the average "musician" for any other genre.
(post #19)

Originally Posted by Sir David

It depends on the genre of metal, if I'm speaking of black metal I can not say that. I could say that they are much better song writers but not musicians.

If I were to speak of Progressive metal, death metal,or power metal, I sure as hell could.
(post #20)

[The Waking Child]

Haha, as I said, you don't even know metal if you can honestly say that the musicians are less talented on average, but you admited to that so.

Anyways, I'll list a few bands that have musicians of the calibur I am speaking of.

Atheist
(post-Human) Death
Cynic
Gorod
Benighted
Gory Blister
In-Quest
Neuraxis
Arsis
Nocturnus
Pestilence
Psycroptic
Alchemist
The Devin Townsend Band
Spastic Ink
Behold ... The Arctopus
maudlin of the Well
!.T.O.O.H!
Mirrorthrone
Sculptured