Minimum wage raise in the US

[Kimmy37]

Okay, due to extenuating circumstances beyond my control, I'm an 18-year-old who is working FULL TIME at MINIMUM WAGE in MISSISSIPPI. Yes, this means $5.15/hr. I believe I have full right to debate here.

First of all, I personally think that raising the minimum wage will make employers think, "Well, crap! I'm not making as much profit (though I'm still not exactly hurting for cash, either)! I'd better raise my prices!" Store owners take every opprotunity (AS A RULE) to raise prices. Why would this be any different?

Second, like I said, I'm FULL TIME at MINIMUM. Mississippi has the LOWEST wages in the ENTIRE USA. Therefore, one would assume our housing, food, etc., is all cheaper. Well, it is. Guess what? I still have to live with my parents and depend on them for everything, including food. Living on minimum is litterally that hard. I'm pulling in roughly $280 every 2 weeks. I'm broke all of the time. Despite having all my essentials paid for, I do pay my own doctor bills. So, I'm always out of cash (from the bills they send me), and my dad's STILL paying for some of them. So, my point is here that even if you somehow manage to live on minimum, you most likely can't afford health care, dental, or things like that. It would simply cost too much to take the insurance out of my paycheck.

Point #3: I work my freakin' butt off every day at work. You wanna tell me that minimum wage people only "flip burgers" and "don't work very much"? That is a lie. Flat out. I am at work for 8+ hours a day, on my feet, working my butt off, no breaks AT ALL. No LUNCH, no SMOKE BREAK, no SIT DOWN FOR A SECOND, no BREATHERS. It's been like this at every other job I've been at except the ONE that was a little above minimum. I could take a lunch break, but that was it. (I had to quit due to transportation problems.) Minimum wage jobs are most likely the hardest jobs a person will have in their life, and they'll get paid the least for them.

Point #4: People who don't go to school are lazy? Not true. Some people can't AFFORD school. My mom got a full ride, but because of her MINIMUM WAGE JOB, she couldn't afford things like CLOTHES, FOOD, ETC. Therefore, she had to drop out. My dad was in the Airforce. They were supposed to pay for his education, but an act was passed to decreased armed forces. My dad was laid off, and his education fund went down the drain. These are two examples of things that can force you to be unable to go to school.

I would also like to state that I pay taxes through the freakin' nose to support walfare, SS, etc. True, the middle class does fall into that, "We'll tax you, but you won't get benefits because you make too much," crack, but many poor people tend to fall into that, "Make too much for this program, too little for this program," crack. Please do not think that only middle class is being jipped here.

I don't see how everyone would be jipped with the minimum wage going up, though. Business men get promotions all the time for pushing paper, and people don't feel jipped for that. So what if Joe Schmoe from Pizza Hut wants to be able to afford something more that ramen? I say let him have it. Higher minimum means (obviously) high wages, higher taxes, more money for people that mooch the system. Everyone's happy.

And for another thing, it's not just fast food that gets minimum.

[Angantyr]

^ You have a lot of good points

I use to work at KFC, just as a part time job after school to pay for my car, I was on $8.50 which was actually fairly good but I was stupid and paid $2000 to get my car fixed and ended up working pretty much 30 hours a week whilst also at my final year of school, this was incredible stupid of me and now I have to pay the price, no education and I didn't have insurence when this lady crashed into me, just bad luck.

Basically I was getting $250 on a good week, but I hardly saw much of that money, working their was not as easy as you guys seem to think, I mean anybody with a 10th grade education could get the job and work for a few weeks then move on, but thats providing they have the desire to put up with it, there was a f*ck load of heavy lifting, its was a fairly messy job and the managers were real pricks.

Getting a decent paying job is quite hard when in an instant your education is pretty much ruined. I now have a broken arm so I am on the Sickness Benifit, this is barely enough to live off but thankfully I get $140 and only have to give $20 board and spend it on mostly what ever I want, BUT I also have over $2000 in confirmed fines, plus there is a likely hood that I will get another $4000 on top of that. I can't work, I probably won't be able to do anything with my life for the next 5 years and when I do get a crappy low paying job, at least I know I can't earn any less than $9.50 an hour, unfortunatly some people aren't that lucky.

[Hecate]

If our taxes and other expenses go up, much of the middle class that get so-so money will go bankrupt. We're barely making it on two full-time careers.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Kimmy37

First of all, I personally think that raising the minimum wage will make employers think, "Well, crap! I'm not making as much profit (though I'm still not exactly hurting for cash, either)! I'd better raise my prices!" Store owners take every opprotunity (AS A RULE) to raise prices. Why would this be any different?

Some firms will take the opportunity in wage increases to increase their final product price, however, some will not. You see, it depends on the market structure and the elasticity of demand for their product/service. Basically, if they think they can get away with a price rise then they'll take advantage of the opportunity, if not the firm will actually have to expect a fall in profit or make cost cuts elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Kimmy37

Second, like I said, I'm FULL TIME at MINIMUM. Mississippi has the LOWEST wages in the ENTIRE USA. Therefore, one would assume our housing, food, etc., is all cheaper. Well, it is. Guess what? I still have to live with my parents and depend on them for everything, including food. Living on minimum is litterally that hard. I'm pulling in roughly $280 every 2 weeks. I'm broke all of the time. Despite having all my essentials paid for, I do pay my own doctor bills. So, I'm always out of cash (from the bills they send me), and my dad's STILL paying for some of them. So, my point is here that even if you somehow manage to live on minimum, you most likely can't afford health care, dental, or things like that. It would simply cost too much to take the insurance out of my paycheck.

Isn't there "Medicare" in America for those on low incomes?

Originally Posted by Kimmy37

Point #3: I work my freakin' butt off every day at work. You wanna tell me that minimum wage people only "flip burgers" and "don't work very much"? That is a lie. Flat out. I am at work for 8+ hours a day, on my feet, working my butt off, no breaks AT ALL. No LUNCH, no SMOKE BREAK, no SIT DOWN FOR A SECOND, no BREATHERS. It's been like this at every other job I've been at except the ONE that was a little above minimum. I could take a lunch break, but that was it. (I had to quit due to transportation problems.) Minimum wage jobs are most likely the hardest jobs a person will have in their life, and they'll get paid the least for them.

Alright, you work hard. So is that a problem with the company or a problem concerning yourself? If you're working minimum wage then I dare to say you lack the skills to take on a job with higher pay. Therefore, since the skills you provide for the company are easily replaceable and do not generate a great amount of revenue (Marginal Revenue Product) your wage is suitably low. I say this because if the revenue you generated were higher, your wage would be correspondingly higher to act as a premium for the skills you possess.

Originally Posted by Kimmy37

Point #4: People who don't go to school are lazy? Not true. Some people can't AFFORD school. My mom got a full ride, but because of her MINIMUM WAGE JOB, she couldn't afford things like CLOTHES, FOOD, ETC. Therefore, she had to drop out. My dad was in the Airforce. They were supposed to pay for his education, but an act was passed to decreased armed forces. My dad was laid off, and his education fund went down the drain. These are two examples of things that can force you to be unable to go to school.

The solution to funding your way through university isn't necessarily with an increased minimum wage, rather I consider a government loan linked to the rate of inflation would be more beneficial - with repayment terms such as 9% of your salary after graduation - this is is what it is like in the UK.

Originally Posted by Kimmy37

I would also like to state that I pay taxes through the freakin' nose to support walfare, SS, etc. True, the middle class does fall into that, "We'll tax you, but you won't get benefits because you make too much," crack, but many poor people tend to fall into that, "Make too much for this program, too little for this program," crack. Please do not think that only middle class is being jipped here.

But the final amount of money you get each month post-tax is higher than what you would otherwise receive on unemployment benefits, otherwise it wouldn't make logical sense for you to work. Also, those on minimum wage pay a lower percentage of their income as tax than the middle and upper classes.

Originally Posted by Kimmy37

I don't see how everyone would be jipped with the minimum wage going up, though. Business men get promotions all the time for pushing paper, and people don't feel jipped for that. So what if Joe Schmoe from Pizza Hut wants to be able to afford something more that ramen? I say let him have it. Higher minimum means (obviously) high wages, higher taxes, more money for people that mooch the system. Everyone's happy.

Pushing paper? How about the stress of not meeting project deadlines, budgets or profit levels? I don't believe the job of managers and businessmen is as care-free as you just portrayed. Furthermore, your example is false. You say businessmen who receive promotions don't get "jipped" for it whereas those earning minimum wage do; but the promotions and increases in pay these businessmen receive are likely to be far above the minimum wage. Hence, these pay increases are being decided by the company and they believe that a pay increase is worth it because the increase in revenue this worker provides is enough to offset his pay rise. Increases in the minimum wage have nothing to do with company decisions - it's government legislation which leaves firms with no choice and a distortion to the labour market. Increases in the minimum wage may not reflect increases in the productivity of the workers and would not be a rational choice made by firms.

Originally Posted by Jintatsu

No, raising minimum wage shouldn't be done casually and for no reason, however, without minimum wages, what do you get? Sweatshop wages. You can guarantee that employers will take advantage of such things and will then have no need for the orient if you catch my drift. Frankly, I doubt that your mother has in fact worked harder than anyone that makes minimum wage. She's worked longer perhaps, and harder than some maybe, but I know for a fact that there are plenty of people making minimum wage that work every bit as hard as she does (assuming she does in fact work hard and isn't just tooting her large conservative horn).

Wages in, say America, would not fall as low as they are in developing countries, e.g. China. This is simply because $2 an hour buys many RMB which in turn can buy a lot more in China than $2 would in America. However, in China the wages of middle income earners would not be able to purchase the same quality of life in America.

Also, what is the problem with "sweatshop wages"? No-one is being forced into a job, they voluntarily choose to take it. If they believe having a relatively low paying job is better than no job then so be it - a deciding factor would be how much the individual values their leisure time, for example. If wages are low then that is the wage rate determined by the free market, and would be closer to allocative efficiency than what would otherwise be the case had the government intervened. If wages are so low people leave the labour pool then the shortage of labour would cause wages to go back up. I believe the time lag is relatively short, while Keynesians and Neo-Keynesians would say it could take up to a few years. There are likely to be many factors, such as the economic conditions, government legislation in the labour market, social attitudes to jobs, to name a few. I cannot say with conviction the time lag is 1 month or 1 year but for those on low wages I think it is short. My reasoning is because the workers on low wages are likely to be more suspectible to changes in economic conditions as they have "common" skills whereas managers may expect pay rises even during times of a downturn and expect to keep jobs as long as satisficing profit is made. I could talk more on this later.

[Hecate]

My mother is an RN in the psych field. We USED to be in the middle of the middle class, but because of higher taxes and outrageous bills, PLUS all the gas she needs to drive an hour to and from work (my stepfather drives even more than she does), we can't afford it. The middle class is ALREADY skinking lower and lower in society....we are on a "money diet", getting only what we NEED, and we're just barely making it. My mom has to find a second job. Do you think an RN of her stature should NEED a second job?? No. I think not. It's a highly qualified career, you need special schooling and training and years of experience to get where she is, and she's barely making 30k/year.

[Secret Azn Man]

It's stupid to abolish minimum wage and expect the lower class to get better jobs. Don't you think they would if they could? I know you would if you could. Besides, it's in our interest that there is somebody doing minimum wage jobs. If everyone refused to work for minimum wage pay, who's gonna do it? Frankly, I want my Chipotle, the public restroom clean, and my food served. I'm greatful for those who dol these jobs. I always tip generously. If only to make their life just a bit more bearable for making mine easier. Thats why I'm for the wage increase.

I don't understand, Sherry. It seems to me you are contradicting yourself. You claim that those who rely on minimum wages instead of trying to get a higher paying jobs are lazy. Yet, you complain about your financial situation and you don't even work. Now, I understand and emphathize with the circumstances preventing you from being able to work. But by your argument, you'd simply be labled as a lazy freeloader sucking money off of hard working middle-class tax payers. It's not their fault you decided to get knocked up during school and now can't hold a job because you got a kid to watch.

I don't agree with that, but that's the typical view point of conservative republicans. Lower class citizens are there because they don't try to work for their living. And middle class citizens have to pay for it.

So, what about you, Sherry? It appears you are in the lower-middle class. In fact, I'd say you ARE lower class based on your description of your situation. Middle class people don't wear nine years old clothes, and make $29,000 a year. Why aren't you doing something about your situation? Why doesn't your mom do anything? Both of you say you guys are barely scraping by with all your income taxed. Why don't you two just make more money, then? Get a higher paying job. If you expect lower class citizens to get higher paying job instead of "volunteering" to work for minimum wage, why can't your mom get a job that pays her $33,000 a year? Seriously, if your mother invested in post-secondary education and only had a $29,000 GROSS annual income to show for it, she's getting robbed. My parents are blue collar workers with no college degrees , hell, my mom never finished high school, both immigrated to America, yet they make $32,000 a year in a city where cost of living is CHEAPER than Pennslyvania. If my parents can establishd a decent living, why can't you and your parents?

The answer is, it's just not easy being lower or middle class. I figured you'd be FOR the minimum wage increase because it helps those affected to be more self-sufficient and not rely on welfare as much. They can work part-time and pay their way through school. Or afford day-care.

Basically, what I'm saying is that you, Sherry, are arguing against people in the same or similar situation as you. It doesn't make any sense. Why are you loathing the "lazy" lower class when you should be angry at the upper class who makes all or most of the rules? You blame the lower class for your high taxes? Why? You think all of your taxes pay for welfare and subsidies? Why not be angry at corperations who take advantage of tax deductions, subsidies, and grants from the government? Why not be angry at billion dollar pharmaceuticals that overcharge the government on medicare bills. When I was in California, I was on medicare. My wheelchair was billed $5,000 and the accessoriues including side guards, brake extensions \adds another $4,000. ..That's messed up. Three lame accessories costs almost as much as the chair itself? Bull. Even though I didn't pay a cent, the government got ripped off. Our government LOVES to waste money. They suck at efficient spending compared to other countries. And not to mention the ongoing War on Terrorism. Spending billions to replace a shitty government with a less than shitty one. For what? What do you and I get out of it? Bigger taxes.

I don't see what your mom having a good job has to do with others trying to make a little extra to get by. I can see how you guys are falling into poverty , but trying to push down the ones that already are just so you can have "status". Us getting more money for shitty work would not effect you mother's pay at all. AN considering it would only happen to keep us with society, economy changes....pay changes, we would actually be putting money into your pockets an even out the economy so that there can still be a middle class. We have below wages already, and it is not helping you guys out. So if we were at the "suposed" pay then you guys would probably be better off. The government taking money from us is suposed to bring you guys down. That is the whole point. You make too much you are taking from them. Knocking down us only hurts you. An though i have respect for people's opinion I so advice you to get your own opinions. Go out an get a minimum paying job an go live on your own. Truth is without your mom you would "have" to settle for minimum wage whether you were adviced to work or not, and then you would have a completely different view on the situation.Your mom can bitch because she has the money an the stability to do so, but you don't. If she is not there you have to become one of the people the have a minimum wage job. That is just a fact.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Secret Azn Man

It's stupid to abolish minimum wage and expect the lower class to get better jobs. Don't you think they would if they could? I know you would if you could. Besides, it's in our interest that there is somebody doing minimum wage jobs. If everyone refused to work for minimum wage pay, who's gonna do it? Frankly, I want my Chipotle, the public restroom clean, and my food served. I'm greatful for those who dol these jobs. I always tip generously. If only to make their life just a bit more bearable for making mine easier. Thats why I'm for the wage increase.

Did you read what I wrote about the free market determining the wage rate? Why they are paid such a small amount for the jobs they do? If the wage for menial jobs becomes too low then people will switch to alternative employment in other industries, which in turn increases the wage rate in that industry because of the shortage of labour. The government does not need to intervene in the mechanisms of the free market because I believe the market works well on its own and intervention merely serves to distort the market making such legislation government failure.

That is a load of bull. You cannot force a person to do a job they don't want to do. NO more than you can force a person to quit. I am sorry , but that way of going about itdoes not make sence. Considering that most people have family's to take care of. There is a very samll majority of people that can get through school with their hides still intact when you have a family. I am not just going to quit a low paying job just to go to school, when I have a baby to feed. That is dumb. The only peole that can accomplish going to school an still have a car, home, etc. are rich fat cats that get everything from mommy an daddy. Well my mom told me to work for what I have, and that if that means working from the bottom I have no shame in doing that. My baby needs clothes. I am not about to drop everything to just to go to school. that is selfish. I am sorry but it would not help the communtiy at all. It is just picking off the weak, and that is what it is all about. because half the people I know with minimum wage jobs are those teenagers, and those whom need to take care of their family more than go to school . The government needs to start pushing the lazy people that mooch of the government, and not the people actually working for this country. I believe in government help, but for years? Give me my money an stop taking out my taxes to feed lazy bums, and then I will think of allowing my pay to stay the same. for now I will keep "working" for my promotions

[Jin]

Originally Posted by Winter

Also, what is the problem with "sweatshop wages"? No-one is being forced into a job, they voluntarily choose to take it. If they believe having a relatively low paying job is better than no job then so be it

People aren't forced into sweatshops either if you look at it from the technical manner that you are looking at it from. However, people need money to live and the only way to get that money is to get a job (let's assume for the sake of argument that people don't suck and begging isn't an option). Poor people cannot afford higher education and often can't afford to finish highschool because they have to work to support either themselves or thier families. They are desperate and will take anything they can get, as long as they're able to live off of it. Employers would take advantage of this if there was no minimum wage and they would give people as little as possible. The person in question can't get a better education, s/he can't afford it and certainly won't be able to save up with the pitton wages that they recieve due to no minimum wage. It's hard enough to get out of that situation with a minimum wage at the level it's currently at as is.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Jintatsu

People aren't forced into sweatshops either if you look at it from the technical manner that you are looking at it from. However, people need money to live and the only way to get that money is to get a job (let's assume for the sake of argument that people don't suck and begging isn't an option). Poor people cannot afford higher education and often can't afford to finish highschool because they have to work to support either themselves or thier families. They are desperate and will take anything they can get, as long as they're able to live off of it. Employers would take advantage of this if there was no minimum wage and they would give people as little as possible. The person in question can't get a better education, s/he can't afford it and certainly won't be able to save up with the pitton wages that they recieve due to no minimum wage. It's hard enough to get out of that situation with a minimum wage at the level it's currently at as is.

Did you read what I said about unemployment benefits? It would not make logical sense for wages (post-tax if applicable) to fall below the level of welfare benefits provided by the state. Therefore, if unemployment benefits provide an income level that is an appropriate standard as determined by the government then the same government does not need to introduce minimum wage laws.

Even so, perhaps some employers would take advantage of the fact a group of people are desperate for a job but I see nothing wrong with that. It is quite simply the free market at work. These people are not forced into a job, just like sweat shop workers are not forced into their job - they choose to take up the work voluntarily, no matter how desperate they are, which at the end of the day is a free choice. And as I have said final income would not be below benefits so even if wages do fall (due to a surplus of labour for example) then these people would not be on a wage they cannot live off.

Furthermore, the wage paid to workers would equal (or as close to) the revenue product of the worker. If the wage rate falls below the MRP of the extra worker other firms in the industry will hire the worker at a slightly higher wage rate because it would still be profitable to do so. Hence, under a free market people would not be paid an amount vastly lower than the worth of the skills they possess, which in my view is completely fair.