Space

that is not creation of matter, that is energy and matter changing places, which does happen... but when matter is "destroyed" energy is given off (fire burning something to give off heat), and when matter is "created," it takes some energy (your example).

Oh, well, I've never claimd to be a physics expert I was just parotting what I've heard in the past. So, don't blame me. TOo much. :-D

Thanks for correcting me, though.

And, mKA- I agree, there's ALOT of things we don't understand about the universe. I'd go as far as to venture that what we DON'T know far outweighs that which we do know. I kjnow one thing that's interesting- please, correct me if I'm wrong -but it relates to quantum physics. It's these two types of atoms, something- as I said above, I'm not a physicist -of which the name eludes me, can be entwined somehow. The strange thing about this occurence- which Einstein theorized as possible -is that, once entwined, their fates are somehow tied together, inseperable. And, when one of the atoms is destroy, the atom that it's entwined with (not in a physical sense- it's confusing as ****, because, while Einstein THEORIZED it, he still didn't know the WHY it happened) can be billions of light years away, yet, at the exact same nano-second that the one is destroyed, the OTHER is destroyed. Which somehow bypasses all known concepts of speed and space.

Fascinating stuff. And, as I mentioned- even though Einstein theorized it, he still didn't know WHY it happened. I read the article in, if I remember correctly, Rednova.com awhile back. It was told in relation to quantum computers, because, if we could HARNESS this instantaneous travel in the form of information... very interesting results.

.david
-once more, I'm not a physicist. I know jack and shit about quantum physics, although what I DO know does fascinate me. It's probably the only science, short of the soft sciences (which q.p. SEEMS to border on (correct me, please, if I'm wrong- soft sciences are psychology, sociology, etc) in a way, with how it breaks away from traditional sciences), that interests me in anyway.
-fascinated by it because of the creative potentials. My skills lie in the area of creating ideas and stories- science, with it's A+B=C every single time rules, bores me

[Wookie]

Originally posted by unliMited mKA
that is not creation of matter, that is energy and matter changing places, which does happen... but when matter is "destroyed" energy is given off (fire burning something to give off heat), and when matter is "created," it takes some energy (your example).

The energy is still there, only now it takes the form of the particles rest mass and kinetic energy!

ObsoleteResolve: As far as I can see you are somewhat mixing the ideas of bosonic/fermionic behaviour with the effects of a EPR paradox. This is understandable, since both issues deal with collective behaviour of particles, and since Einstein played a significant role in the discovery of both. I'll give a little explanation of each below:

Bosons vs. fermions: It turns out that elementary particles are divided into two separate classes of particles known as bosons and fermions. The differences of the two are only evident, when more than one of the same species of particle is present in a system. In short bosons tend to occupy the same quantum state as one another, while fermions can {i]never[/i] occupy the same quantum state (the latter is known as the Pauli pronciple). In general fermionscan be though of as 'real matter' (f.ex. electrons, protons and neutrons), while bosons are particles mediating forces (f.ex. photons mediating electromagntic interactions).

EPR: Quantum mechanics cannot predict the exact outcome of single experiments, but instead predict probabilities of what will happen in a given situation. As some of you may know Einstein didn't believe quantum mechanics to be true, because of this inherent randomness (you may have heard the quote 'God does not play dice with the Universe!'). He couldn't deny that the theory predicted correct results, but he thought that what at first glance appeared to be totally random did indeed have some 'inner workings' that was yet to be understood. To prove the absurdity of the theory he made a socalled thought experiment known as the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen paradox (or EPR for short). This is a common device for proving something to be false. If you assume a statement (A) to be true, and from logical deductions conclude something that is clearly wrong, then (A) must be false. This is known as reductio ad absurdum in latin. So, Einstein assumed the inherent randomness of quantum mechanics to be true, and suggested the following experiment to be carried out: Two photons (light particles) are emitted from a point in opposite directions as the same time. Photons have a property called helicity which can either be +1 or -1. Physically it is simply put whether the photon rotates clockwise or counterclockwise relative to the direction of movement. Now, the photons are thought to be emitted in such a way, that the total helicity is zero. In other words: If we measure the helicity of photon#1 as +1, we know that the helicity of photon#2 will be -1 and vice versa. The probabilty of finding either helicity state of either photon is 50%. But the real paradox is this: Before the measurement is actually done the photon is in a state where the helicity is +1 and -1 at the same time! This is known as a superpostion of states, and is a commonplace thing in the quantum world. Upon measurement, the state is said to be collapsed into a state of deifinite helicity +1 or -1! But, collapsing photon#1 to have helicity +1 (or -1), automatically collapses photon#2 to have helicity -1 (or +1) instantaneously! Even though they may be miles away from each other! This is not allowed according to Einstein's own theory of relativity, which states that no information is to travel faster than the speed of light! This is the EPR 'paradox'!

However, (years later) the experiment was actually conducted, and showed results in favor of quantum mechanics. Even Einstein accepted randomness as a basic feature of nature at that point!

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i just think space is never ending. its kinda hard to imagine it. well you cant imagine it cuz its one of the many questions of life. (And holy shit this makes 200 posts for me. WOOHOO!)

I belive that the Universe is infinate. I mean how can it be finate? There would have to be something else to replace it, no? My weird British brain works things out in a different way to everyone else.

Like Blaise Pascal said about God, we will never know, because we cannot prove it. It, like believing in God, is a complete gamble. My belief is that the universe / earth is simply a re-occuring object. At the end, it will simply restart, over and over. We will never find God, and we will never find the end of the universe.

Plus we're all going to die in 2006 so it doesn't really matter anyway.

Originally posted by Neo Necron
Yeh, that ending up where you started thing is just some scientist's theory, and some people believe it. Maybe it is true, but theres no proof, and so no reason to believe it.

I believe space is infinate. Space is nothingness, and even if there is some thing surrounding space, there much be nothingness or something infinate surrounding that.

errr you say theres no proof of the one theory, but yet you stick to another theory even tho there is less proof then the other....which baffles me

i beleive in the big bang theory, and if it was an explosion, then it has to end sometime, but there is also a voice in the back of my mind thats thinking of the universe as a giant sphere, meaning you might end up at the place where you started. heres a rough drawing of what i think space is like:

*insert shifty eyes*
err i cant draw with that ascii shizzy
i'll scan something instead

Hmm... How can you agree with the big bang theory? How did that start / "get" created (briliant grammar there...)? Surely there was just a whole load of explosions, cummulating in the Big Bang? But what started that (and so on). First Cause theory... Find out about it ... St. Thomas Aquinas - 1200 AD.

[fragdemon]

I'm going to go upwards as I address the folks. Starting with Messy, and going on until I get to... Messy again.

Messy
Hmm... How can you agree with the big bang theory? How did that start / "get" created (briliant grammar there...)? Surely there was just a whole load of explosions, cummulating in the Big Bang? But what started that (and so on).

Quantum mechanics.

Quantum mechanics are an entire section of physics in which things happen solely for probability's sake. (There's more to it than that, but the brief thing my physics teacher said when explaining why everything we do in Physics class is based on assumptions). I think Wookie would be able to explain it better, especially since he knows what it is while I just go by a single concept given to me by a harrowed teacher.

So things can very well just happen.
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Also, how can you believe in anything as the source of anything under the First Cause theory.

First cause theory would mean that whatever caused the Big Bang would have to have a cause, and that would have to have a cause of its own.

And you'd have to go back an infinite set of causes until anything that exists was seemingly caused by some event far off into infinity.

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Werevampire
errr you say theres no proof of the one theory, but yet you stick to another theory even tho there is less proof then the other....which baffles me

There is proof to the infinity concept.

The proof isn't proof done through research, but simple logic. The logic being, there can't just be an end. If there's an end, there must be something past that end. We could end a specific period, but time won't end. And we could end a specific section, but space won't end.

And by the simple definition of what the universe is:

"Everything that exists everywhere."

Everywhere would include past whatever boundaries we set.

Werevampire
but there is also a voice in the back of my mind thats thinking of the universe as a giant sphere

A coupla things about the universe being a sphere:

1) That would mean the universe itself has a discernable boundary, which would defy the concept of a universe. Maybe something else can be sphere shaped that earth happens to be moving in, but whatever it is shouldn't be called the universe, but rather a path we take through the universe, or an area of the universe.
2) The big bang would have to be at an edge of the sphere rather than in the center of the sphere for everything to spread out and meet again rather than spread out and just hit the many sides of said sphere.
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Messy
Plus we're all going to die in 2006 so it doesn't really matter anyway.

I can't tell if you're joking or if you're actually referencing something there.

i have a bit of a migraine, but im pretty sure the big bang happened when matter imploded and created a big explosion or something like that, but im extremely tired, so i'll be quit now, and this isnt a spelling contest messy, so stfu, and about the sphere thing i think the universe is like the earth, you dont run into a wall, you go around in a circle, but if there already was a sphere and the small circle of mattter in the center of it and that imploded, it could send the shit outward unto the depths of space

Originally posted by WereVampire
i have a bit of a migraine, but im pretty sure the big bang happened when matter imploded and created a big explosion or something like that,

What matter? There was matter before the big bang? (I was always told it was gasses...)

gasses are matter ;_;

wow messy, you have exceeded my expectations...are you really that idiotic? seriously messy, tell me the truth! i learned that in 8th grade, im....im.....speechless...just WOW oh god now my head hurts trying to comprehend as to how someone could argue over a period of 4 days (?) and then say one of the dumbest comments ive ever heard. well, i guess im not so speechless

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As an 8th grader myself, I am fascinated and frightened at the possibility of infinity on its own. The fact that something goes on forever, and never ends, is amazing to me. (Actually my true fright is the afterlife, or more familiarly, "what happens when we die"? I just can't imagine, comprehend, the possibility of not being able to think. That scares me. I hope, i undylingy hope that all theories of catholism are true, and that I go up to heaven [i beleive that unless you are EVIL, you go to heaven, that's a long story myself. People sin because they make mistakes, or because they are following their believes. However when it comes to the point where someone gains HAPPINESS in the pain of others, and i don't just mean what they believe is happiness, but true joy, THAT is evil.])

Anyway, back on topic now. There is a greater force out there, whatever you wish to call it, god, or whatever. Whether it be aliens that are controlling are fate (which in turn, at least according to our own sense of belief, must be controlled by a greater force itself in the sense of infinity) or just an inexplanable presence, it has created us with purpose, and has also created us with obvious limits. Whether or not we want to believe it, unless you're like the guy from phenomenom or something, our brains actually DO have a limit, a capacity we cannot deny. Well we can, but I think we shouldn't.

Perhaps the universe isn't infinite after all! How could this be possible, you may ask? How could there be an END to something?! we just can't comprehend it! Well that's EXACTLY my point. We can't comprehend it, and since we don't know, its true. Its a silly idea, but because we can't remotely believe that the universe is infinite, due to our own sense of infinity, the universe is infinite. Now this may not be TRUE (behold the power of that word, the one in bold, that is).

So now, tell me. What is true anyway? Can you really defy what truth is? No, because we only no truth to the limits of our own belief. The fact that the earth rotates around the sun is but a belief supported by other beliefs we think of as evidence. Truth cannot be relative in the situation, since as well as the rest of the point i'm trying to explain, WE CANNOT COMPREHEND.

Okay, now that i'm done with all that, lets go on a bit, beyond this topic. What I said before about aliens. This is just a pet peeve of mine, but I absolutely despise it when people say that they don't believe in aliens. What is the definition of alien? Let's see (from dictionary.com) "A creature from outer space" (this is for our famous stereotypical aliens from movies and stuff, not alien like someone from another country or something, or feeling alienated, alone and seperate from a group of people, "left out"). The question is not "how could there be aliens?" but instead "how could there NOT be aliens". We are beings on a planet, with millions of other species, which is but one planet in our solar system, which only to our own knowledge currently has no life on earth. What of all the other solar systems? What of the galaxy? What of ALL the galaxies?! How could there NOT be aliens of all the billions of trillions of planets?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Well, it all goes back to my original theory. maybe we ARE the only ones. And we will never understand because we are STUPID! MUA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!

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Okay, now for my comments and personal opinions on the other theories and such mentioned in this topic. (I am now totally disregarding my theory aforementioned, due the fact that these state of opinions would be pointless and worthless in which they would all result in a identical conclusion)

SPHERICAL SHAPED UNIVERSE
no, the universe has no shape. The universe is infinite. Just as mentioned before, whatever is beyond that shape is still considered, SOMETHING must be beyond the border, the end. But then again, what if we don't care? If we don't care or even decide to recognize the "space" beyond the end of the sphere, than like I said before, it does not exist. Whatever is not believed, does not exist. All that matters is what exists through our own perception, and through our own perception what exists is what we believe. However, because i don't like spheres, i'll leave you with this. Spheres don't deserve to be the shape of something as grand as the universe.

RETURNING TO THE POINT OF BEGINNING ONCE REACHING THE "END"
No, I refuse to make reality similar to an old skool video game, so no, this is not true. If you reach the end, if there is an end, you stay there UNLESS "god" himself sends you back. I think this theory is stupid, and all though possible, just like EVERY theory so far proposed (at least if MY theory is correct anyway, it would have to be in order for ALL of the others to even exist potentially)

IT JUST HAPPENS
Once again, no. This statement is very possible, in fact its a good explanation of "why". Then again, I hate it. and in my mind and power, while what I hate is still existant, it is banished to a corner of my mind, or the universe in itself, a "hell" in one's own interpretation. I just HATE the idea of this theory. I DESPISE it. It brings me nothing but fear to think that something could just HAPPEN.

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This all reminds me of what was once said by Calvin in Calvin & Hobbes

"When in doubt, deny all means and purpose."