The US Election

[Govinda]

(I decided not to put this in ID, since something as huge and vital as this election being considered an 'intellectual' topic would be too depressing).

I found this today, and thought someone should put a thread up about the election, since it decides our fates etc. It should be discussed. Though hopefully without fights.

From the Economist magazine's website; a global electoral map. It's pretty neat. (One small problem with it - it shows America as having an 80% lean towards Obama, which is plainly untrue. It's just American people who read the Economist website. However, apart from them, I think the rest should be pretty much right. Since we can't choose anyway, it doesn't matter too much. 250,000 turned out in Berlin to see Obama; McCain's visit barely registered. The map just colours it in.)

I've become fascinated with this race, despite being on the other side of the sea. I'd like to see Obama win, because I'd feel a lot safer that way. McCain's reaction to the Georgia thing, ie to growl at the Kremlin rather than condemn Georgia for bombing hospitals in South Ossetia, makes me feel uneasy; and then there's the forgien policy behaviour of 'You can see Russia from Alaska' Palin. This is not, as the map shows, an uncommon opinion among people who live outwith the US.

How do you think the candidates are doing? Are they making good calls at this stage in the race?

Another question is why this is such a close race at such a stage. The economy is dead, and people rightly blame Bush for that; people don't want the war anymore; the GOP has screwed it up. Under normal circumstances this would be virtually unlosable for the Dems. It's surely a testament to McCain that it isn't.

If you're American, how do you feel about them and how they would care for you? If you're not, how do you feel they'd act on the international stage and in relations with your nation state in particular?

[Alizée Jacotey]

Close race? Nah.

My state (Florida) has 27 electoral votes. We have registered 600 thousand people, while the Republicans only registered 125K. If Obama wins Florida, its over.

Other than that, he is leading in so many states it is almost a guarantee.

[Govinda]

Originally Posted by James D.

Close race? Nah.

My state (Florida) has 27 electoral votes. We have registered 600 thousand people, while the Republicans only registered 125K. If Obama wins Florida, its over.

Other than that, he is leading in so many states it is almost a guarantee.

But polls are just polls. Kerry was ahead in them for periods too. Obama's leads in most states aren't in double figures yet; the testament to McCain is that even while he's completely dropping states, while he's taking weekends off and not visiting, while he's not registering nearly as many voters as you - it's not a one-horse race. Considering how much more work Obama and wonderful people like you are putting in, and how badly the GOP've screwed up the past 8 years, the fact that it's not completely decided is strange.

[Andromeda]

I don't look at the poll stuff, but if you want to say that it is even sure. I guess I can go with that. But I don't think it is so much that McCain is holding things up as much as we don't trust the Democrats. The Democrats have screwed up so many things here that people don't want to see them around.

Personally, I think we'd do better with Palin since she seems to understand that government isn't about being huge and controlling everything Government is there to keep law and order, but not micro manage the lives of the citizens. It is the citizens job to manage their own lives without the government supporting them every step of the way. Plus she is not corrupt and will actually fight the corruption.

I'd look forward to her being president if it could happen. Obama is a yo-yo he is never exact and is always saying something contrary to what he said early. He just wants votes and is going to say anything to get them. Chrisma is not going to make a good president. He is all fluff. I couldn't take him seriously the way he was acting in the last debate as well.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Andromeda

Personally, I think we'd do better with Palin since she seems to understand that government isn't about being huge and controlling everything Government is there to keep law and order, but not micro manage the lives of the citizens. It is the citizens job to manage their own lives without the government supporting them every step of the way. Plus she is not corrupt and will actually fight the corruption.

What in the name of whatever divine being you believe in are you ****ing talking about with saying we'd be better off with Palin? The woman thinks Dinosaurs were here 4000 years ago and that she's Russia's next door neighbor up there in Alaska, a state with a total population that's less than a lot of "small" towns in the continental US. She has NO experience, NO knowledge, and NO ****ING BUSINESS being in an elected office as high as the Vice President. Add in the fact that John McCain's age (72) puts him at a high risk of health issues causing him to die during his first term, you're stuck with an even worse president than Dubya. President Palin. That sounds REALLLLY attractive to me.

The government IS here to govern our every day lives. That's why it exists. Do you want to go back to the days of a weak central government where the US economy was one of the worst off in the world and eventually led to the Civil War?

Obviously I support Obama - He has better economic policies, better foreign policies, better ideas on how to deal with our inevitable depression, he'll have a better cabinet of advisors, he has better supporters, and a better vice presidential candidate.

Palin has no mind of her own, she'll follow McCain as far as she's told to. She'll never question anything, she'll never be a sound voice of reason. Hell the woman even had to ask at one point "What is it exactly the Vice President does?"

-Her history shows that she's manipulative. She fought for billions of dollars to build a bridge the size, scale, and price of the Golden Gate or Brooklyn Bridges that led to an island holding 50 people. Funds were allocated to this after she became Governer of Alaska, at which point she said she was AGAINST the "bridge to nowhere" and instead built roads. Bilions of dollars of roads.

To nowhere. The terrain didn't allow for these roads to work out in the end, and there's a massive road leading up to the site where the bridge was to be built. Billions and billions of dollars of roads.... to nowhere.

Biden disagrees with Obama on a few key issues, not in totality, but in key points. What does this mean? Discussion, reasoning, and ultimately compromising. I'd rather have a President and VP who both have minds of their own, thanks.

James: I love your avatar. Props to you, sir.

[Sasquatch]

Obviously, the Economist's map is biased in many aspects. And for me, enemies of the United States wanting Obama to win is yet another reason to vote against Obama, not for him.

I realize that, to be blunt, too many people are ignorant of the issues. Too many people blame the current economic problems on Bush, for example, when it was Clinton's policies that caused it in the first place. (I've even heard the argument that, sure, Clinton caused it, but it's still all Bush's fault because he didn't reverse and correct Clinton's bad policies.) Too many people find things to complain about concerning OIF and OEF, yet don't realize how badly both were needed and wanted, or how much good has (and will yet) come of them. Too many people see Bush as a shining example of the Republican Party, but fail to realize that Bush is in no way a fiscal conservative, and many conservatives -- myself included -- have problems with him for this. But truth be told, Bush isn't to blame for the vast majority of things pinned on him. I'm all for recognizing things he's to blame for, I just wait for him to do something wrong before I start calling him out on it.

As far as Obama and McCain go ... As little experience as Palin has, she still has more applicable experience than Obama does. And liberals love to complain about how Palin would be close to the office of President, but always fail to discuss how Palin is still more qualified than Obama, who would be IN the office of President. And let's not talk about how old Biden is, or the fact that Obama is a middle-aged black man with a smoking habit.

Biden was a good choice for Obama because he brings, finally, some experiece to the Democratic ticket. Palin was a good choice for McCain because McCain is a liberal Republican, and needed a conservative to get the conservatives who loved Ron Paul, but would vote third-party if not for a more conservative balance to the Republican ticket.

The problem with Obama is that he has done absolutely nothing in his career except advance it. And he hasn't changed -- his entire platform isn't designed to help the country, it's designed to gather votes.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Sean

The government IS here to govern our every day lives. That's why it exists.

No, it's not. The government is here to stay out of our lives. It's here to protect us from others, NOT to protect us from ourselves.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean
The government IS here to govern our every day lives. That's why it exists.
No, it's not. The government is here to stay out of our lives. It's here to protect us from others, NOT to protect us from ourselves.

That depends on how you want to take that for context. I don't mean it completely 100% literally, but expecting the government to not govern the lives of US citizens is absurd. It was done that way in the past, and it failed.

I also fail to see how Palin can be considered a full-on conservative with her spending practices in Alaska.

[Govinda]

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

Obviously, the Economist's map is biased in many aspects. And for me, enemies of the United States wanting Obama to win is yet another reason to vote against Obama, not for him.

Maybe they want to stop being your enemies, and want to stop fighting with you? Macedonia want McCain, like a lot of the eastern bloc, because they think he's their best shot at getting America to go to war with Russia, which would benefit nobody, but would make them feel a little less victimised.

Bush didn't just screw America over; he screwed us over too. You are the hegemon, and for the past 8 years have been an irresponsible hegemon; as such, your standing in the world has sunk and sunk and sunk. Even the UK holds America in contempt now. The 'special relationship' exists only in government chambers these days. China are about to take over as the primary military power, and the Western economy has been hit far harder than theirs in this recent economic mess. Obama is the man to negotiate America's way out of being pushed into second place; McCain is the guy who'd start a war over it. And nobody wants that.

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

always fail to discuss how Palin is still more qualified than Obama, who would be IN the office of President. And let's not talk about how old Biden is, or the fact that Obama is a middle-aged black man with a smoking habit.

Palin's more qualified? She managed to balloon the debt of a tiny little town, and then of a state with a population less than many continental American towns. She appears to have experience in wasting money, getting indicted for abusing power, and being manipulative. She's a good 'un.

I get the (frankly tiny) smoking habit. But what does Obama being a black man have to do with his health?

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

The problem with Obama is that he has done absolutely nothing in his career except advance it. And he hasn't changed -- his entire platform isn't designed to help the country, it's designed to gather votes.

What can a presedential candidate do to help a country? Nothing. All they can do is try to gather votes so that they end up in the place where they can change things.What's the use of gathering votes once in office? He's already stated on many occaisions what he'll do once he's there. He has advanced his career, yes, while taking a few years to work as a grassroots community organiser on $50,000 a year. This shows his lack of experience; but the thing's he's said, the way he carries himself, and the fact that he picked Biden to make up for his shortcomings show that he's ready. The President and VP should be a team.

I still think McCain's choice of Palin had nothing to do with her strengths. It was a Karl Rove choice designed to bring the rank and files Republicans into the fold, and to attract scared independents. And a completely failed attempt at wooing Hillary manaics. They wouldn't be a team in office. Europe would weep.

[Koda]

OK, now I'll put my two cents worth in. First of all, the Republicans have now turned this into a smear campaign because they ARE behind in the polls and they are reaching for straws. Secondly, I am an Independant, and although I do agree with Palin on many issues, I now see her as her true self. She is smearing a man as a terrorist, who was 8 years old when Ayers was a radical. Who, which I might add DID turn himself in at one point (Ayers). Now we have a woman standing there ranting and raving about the opposing team. Well now, let's check our books here.....yep...roads to nowhere, a man loses his job because Palin is pissed off because it's her sisters exhusband, and she has the power to cost him his job. Abusing a little power is she? Then we have McCain....he doesn't want to end the war in Iraq. Why? Palin says we would be throwing in the white flag if our toops withdraw. How is that? First of all we are in a war that should NEVER have even started. McCain swore there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq....hmmmm...nope. He was wrong. We did capture AND execute Saddam. There...we won! So what's the deal with the white flag? We were suppose to be looking for BinLaden....remember...the guy that organized 9/11. Oh yeah, our Government, President Bush, must have forgotten about that. And he isn't in Iraq!!
Now McCain said himself during the last debate that HE knows how to capture BinLaden..He knows where he is...HE knows how to do it. Well then why in the hell has he been keeping this great secret for seven years????
Our Government is full of nothing but greedy wealthy people that don't care about anyone or anything but themselves. It's time to clean house and get someone with some real values in office. I agree that Obama does not have a lot of experience, but he at least has the main stream of Americans interest at heart. And he's also willing to bring other countries together as Allies once again. McCain is all about war. I don't know about any of you, but I'm tired our troops dying for what? Oh yes...terrorisim that IS NOT in Iraq! And just exactly why are we spending 10 Billion dollars a month over there?? Let Iraq use their own $79 Billion dollars to rebuild. It's ridiculous!!
McCain wants to tax us ...our health insurance for instance and give HUGE tax cuts to the big Corporate Companies and of course the CEO's! Again...it doesn't trickle down. AND he wants to put a Freeze on EVERYTHING except Military and Veterans. Well now, I support our troops completely, and I do wish safety for all and pray they all come home safely....BUT...what about our elderly, Social Security, Medicare......the Republican party has lost a lot of respect from me. And just for the record, when Clinton was in office, we had a surplus of cash......then came the Bush's (both of them!)

[Sasquatch]

Ah, here we go.

Originally Posted by Govinda

Maybe they want to stop being your enemies, and want to stop fighting with you?

Iran suddenly loves us? Jordan wants to be an ally? Vietnam?

Moreso, Israel wants Obama to win? South Korea loves Obama? Hahahahahahahahahah.

Face it, the map is extremely biased. It's from a very liberal source that is mostly visited by liberal people. It's going to reveal only liberal aspects.

Macedonia want McCain, like a lot of the eastern bloc, because they think he's their best shot at getting America to go to war with Russia, which would benefit nobody, but would make them feel a little less victimised.

Macedonia and Georgia are the only countries that McCain would win, according to the map. (And possibly one other that's incredibly small.) So the Eastern Bloc, according to the map, are prettymuch all going to Obama, too.

And they would have no reason to think McCain wants war with Russia. Only that Obama wants to gut the military and leave the rest of the world to fend for themselves.

Bush didn't just screw America over; he screwed us over too.

Bush didn't screw America over either. Try again.

You are the hegemon, and for the past 8 years have been an irresponsible hegemon; as such, your standing in the world has sunk and sunk and sunk.

The job of the President of the United States is to lead the United States, not make the U.S. popular with all the other kids at school.

China are about to take over as the primary military power ...

China has greater military technology than the U.S. does? That's surprising.

... and the Western economy has been hit far harder than theirs in this recent economic mess. Obama is the man to negotiate America's way out of being pushed into second place; McCain is the guy who'd start a war over it. And nobody wants that.

You think McCain would start a war because China might have a more powerful military?

That's, first, the assumption -- baseless assumption -- that McCain would "start a war".

Then, the baseless assumption that McCain would start a war with a country because he feels threatened by it.

Then, the baseless assumption that McCain -- or anybody -- would START a war with a country BECAUSE they're more powerful.

Palin's more qualified?

Than Obama? Let's see. Palin's got six years as Mayor and two as Governor. That's a total of eight years of executive experience. Obama spent seven years as a State Senator, where he accomplished absoluetly nothing, and was elected to the U.S. Senate over a man who accepted the opposing nomination three months before the election. Once he got into office in 2005, he accomplished absolutely nothing until, after less than 180 working days, he announced his candidacy for President.

She managed to balloon the debt of a tiny little town, and then of a state with a population less than many continental American towns.

And the will of the voters apparently has nothing to do with how much they spend, right?

I get the (frankly tiny) smoking habit. But what does Obama being a black man have to do with his health?

Black people have a lower life expectancy. Black people who smoke have an even lower life expectancy. According to some liberals who think Obama will be assassinated if he's elected because America is racist, black people in public office have an even lower life expectancy. If he croaks in office, Biden will be President. Biden is not only a dumbass, he's also old -- and if his life comes to an end, Pelosi will end up in office.

And if Nancy Pelosi ends up as the President of the United States, none of my friends will ever see me again. Either because I will move, or be in prison for assassination.

What can a presedential candidate do to help a country? Nothing.

What should be Obama's first priority -- his attempt at the Presidency, or his JOB AS A SENATOR?

I wasn't referring only to what he's done while he has been running for President. I was referring to his entire political career. He has no substantial accomplishments under his belt. Nothing. He tagged on with a few things, then voted "Present" on plenty of others.

He has advanced his career, yes, while taking a few years to work as a grassroots community organiser on $50,000 a year.

First, where Obama was isn't "grassroots". Second, he made more than $50k/yr. And third, he didn't "take a few years", he did that at the beginning of his career.

I still think McCain's choice of Palin had nothing to do with her strengths. It was a Karl Rove choice designed to bring the rank and files Republicans into the fold, and to attract scared independents. And a completely failed attempt at wooing Hillary manaics.

Palin was a good choice for McCain, for reasons I've already explained. She attracted conservatives who didn't like McCain because he's too liberal. She made the party more palatable for independent