[Blitz King]

I would like to know what everybody has to think about the war that the United Staes of America is in now. I agree one hundred percent with the war, and what the country is trying to do overseas. I'm talking about the war in Iraq, Afghanistan, and trying to get Osama Bin Laden; and bring him to Justice.

I don't, at all. My reasons are well established, and I see no real reason to repeat them; our governments lied to us to get oil, basically.

However, now that we're there, we need to stay until things get sorted. My cousin Darren was out there, he's told me what it's like, how horrible it is. And it breaks my heart that the soldiers have to go through all of this, for a lie. Saddam was an evil, evil, abhorrent man, but he at least managed to keep a lid on the conflict between Sunnis and Shi'ites. We let it out, because we went to war with absolutely no post-war strategy. And it's a tragedy, for Iraq most of all. More than 100 people died there yesterday, and the West hardly batted an eyelid.

We need to stay, and help Iraq get back on its feet. Repay for the damage we've done with our own blood. Saying that alone rips me to bits. Honest to ****. Jesus.

I can't get over the terrible sadness of it all. So many children. It really breaks my ****ing heart.

[Dimi]

You know I agree with what you're saying Blitz King. What Osama has caused he deserves to be punished and brought to justice, but this war has gotten out of hand in my opinion. So many people are dying, let alone innocent people like Govinda mentioned.

On top of that, I'm hearing on the news of their being nuclear weapons in the works so many times for a while now. You know how scary that is for people to think that one day you could be here and one day a bomb comes crashing down upon you? Its a scary thing.

Personally, I don't think this war is about bringing Osama to justice. If anything, it has to do with religion. Whichever way anyone wants to look at the war that is what its all about. To certain people, America is evil. To other certain people, the people in Iraq are evil. When will this war stop? What scares me is that its slowly escalating and its gonna get worse from there on.

[Sinister]

While I do not agree with Govinda concerning the motive of the war, I am against the war in the strongest terms.


Any person with a cursory knowledge of the cultures and political situations of Iraq could tell you that it was a fool's errand.

Three cultures of people who litterally hate each other more than we could ever know. One man made this country work. He did it through evil, but even controlled evil is preferable to chaos.

The Kurds.
The Sunni.
and the Shia.

It was a mistake that will rock the next century, heed my words! The consequenses will extend far beyond my lifetime! Bush has destabilized the country for a long time!

[Walter Sobchak]

You aren't going to find a lot of people that disagree with going into Afghanistan.

But Iraq is a lot tougher. Did George Bush willfully deceive us? The federal government simply didn't do all of their homework on the facts before going into the country. But, realistically, the regime of Saddam Hussein should have ended in the early 90's. Three presidents chose not to take appropriate action, and now there are consequences.

If Iraq is able to pull together and form a self-sustaining government, then it was not all bad, however.

We aren't going to find Osama. That just needs to be accepted. He could very possibly be dead, or in the mountains of Pakistan. No president elected in 2008 is going to invade Pakistan, with their second term on the line.

Really though, North Korea. What makes it sting is that while the U.S. fights enemies with marginal threat, North Korea still stands and grows. North Korea is not something that can be put off for years, that is what is urgent.

[Mike]

As a soldier in the Army. I don't agree with the war. These arabs have been at war with "Christians" since long before the US was even a country. We won't be the ones to stop them. They will fight no matter how many of them we kill. What we need is a clear tactical exit strategy from Iraq, that will prevent US soldier deaths in Iraq. I have been there twice. Those people don't appreciate what we have done for them. I say, leave them to their own mess. They will continue to fight each other whether we leave or not.

[Angantyr]

I do not know too much about the Situation but from what I have heard the Muslim threat is much more of a concern to the Europeans than it is to the USA with ridiculous immigration control and the opening of borders to people who do not rest the soil they stand on.

I sympathize with the people of America who were pretty much lied to and partly went there not to support America but for Israel. Oil is only a part of it, but the whole middle east is in a huge mess now and the best thing we can really do is withdraw the troops as they obviously do not appreciate it and let them wallow in their own cesspool.

As for N.Korea I have not heard any threat about them attacking anybody else and so long as they are not in our way then I do not see the threat. However I saw a documentary about the people living there who seemed to be in really harsh conditions which seems to violate a lot of human rights. Something will have to be done eventually but right now there is just so much on their plate.

[Ayse]

No, I don't agree with the war on Iraq. One of the main reasons for America's invasion of the country was to bring down Saddam Hussein, and stop him continuing with his evil reign. However, even after his execution, the war on Iraq continues, making America's real agenda clear. Oil. America's greed for resources has them brain washing and frightening the people of America into believing that the war on Iraq is for the benefit of their country, that if they don't continue the war on Iraq and find Osama bin Laden, then America is still under terror threats. Really, its just America's way of saying we're gonna take any country's natural resources, no matter how many people we have to kill for it.

And just to be fair, I'm against any war.

[Blitz King]

Here is a little something for all you people to think about!!!

You stay up for 16 hours.
He stays up for days on end.

You take a warm shower to help you wake up.
He goes days or weeks without running water.

You complain of a "headache", and call in sick.
He gets shot at as others are hit, and keeps moving forward.

You put on your anti war/don't support the troops shirt, and go meet up with your friends.
He still fights for your right to wear that shirt.

You make sure you're cell phone is in your pocket.
He clutches the cross hanging on his chain next to his dog tags.

You talk trash about your "buddies" that aren't with you.
He knows he may not see some of his buddies again.

You walk down the beach, staring at all the pretty girls.
He patrols the streets, searching for insurgents and terrorists.

You complain about how hot it is.
He wears his heavy gear, not daring to take off his helmet to wipe his brow.

You go out to lunch, and complain because the restaurant got your order wrong.
He doesn't get to eat today.

Your maid makes your bed and washes your clothes.
He wears the same things for weeks, but makes sure his weapons are clean.

You go to the mall and get your hair redone.
He doesn't have time to brush his teeth today.

You're angry because your class ran 5 minutes over.
He's told he will be held over an extra 2 months.

You call your girlfriend and set a date for tonight.
He waits for the mail to see if there is a letter from home.

You hug and kiss your girlfriend, like you do everyday.
He holds his letter close and smells his love's perfume.

You roll your eyes as a baby cries.
He gets a letter with pictures of his new child, and wonders if they'll ever meet.

You criticize your government, and say that war never solves anything.
He sees the innocent tortured and killed by their own people and remembers why he is fighting.

You hear the jokes about the war, and make fun of men like him.
He hears the gunfire, bombs and screams of the wounded.

You see only what the media wants you to see.
He sees the broken bodies lying around him.

You are asked to go to the store by your parents. You don't.
He does exactly what he is told even if it puts his life in danger.

You stay at home and watch TV.
He takes whatever time he is given to call, write home, sleep, and eat.

You crawl into your soft bed, with down pillows, and get comfortable.
He tries to sleep but gets woken by mortars and helicopters all night long.

This is how it is over there.

Originally Posted by Pablo Honey

"He's told me what it's like, how horrible it is."

[Ayse]

Ok, firstly, maybe you should check your posts before you post them, cause that one took me a hella time to read while ignoring all the coding.

Secondly, the people that fight in the war CHOOSE to. They aren't forced to fight, they aren't made to go to war, it was voluntary. If they don't like what they see, then resign. I refuse to support soldiers who claim to be at war for my sake, when really they're working for a different agenda. If I wanna support someone, it'll be like Martin Luther King, or Rosa Parks, REAL people that fight MEANINGFUL battles everyday, like the battle on racism, sexism, homophobia, etc.

[Blitz King]

Originally Posted by Harmonize

. Secondly, the people that fight in the war CHOOSE to. They aren't forced to fight, they aren't made to go to war, it was voluntary. If they don't like what they see, then resign. I refuse to support soldiers who claim to be at war for my sake, when really they're working for a different agenda.

Well, you are not from the United States, now are you! Our soldiers are out fighting for our freedom, and if yours don't do that well to bad. In America you can not join the Army and then resign because you don't like what you see, you have to finish out you policy with them!!!

[Ayse]

Originally Posted by Blitz King

Well, you are not from the United States, now are you! Our soldiers are out fighting for our freedom, and if yours don't do that well to bad. In America you can not join the Army and then resign because you don't like what you see, you have to finish out you policy with them!!!

Erm, didn't Britian send some of our troops to help on the war in Iraq? They DID? Well dam. I dont know jack about the war on Iraq cause I'm not from America! I'll just shut my mouth shall I?

And what freedom was Iraq taking away from America, exactly?

Lastly, I don't think anybody in their right mind would continue with their army training if they really thought they wouldn't like what they see. And no one can force them to continue it if they don't want to.

EDIT: Also, thanks for the neutral rep, I sure if you had enough post's it would have been negative. Next time, please, don't be a chicken and leave a name will ya?

[CLOUD]

Originally Posted by Blitz King

Well, you are not from the United States, now are you! Our soldiers are out fighting for our freedom, and if yours don't do that well to bad. In America you can not join the Army and then resign because you don't like what you see, you have to finish out you policy with them!!!

The last time i checked, you like most countries worldwide are free. Who do they think they are, the US government to bring "their" justice to the Iraqui people, the Afgans & so on???

As if we don't know that this war is about the arab's oils.....even the chicken know that.

I agree with Harmonize. Don't tell me that they'd be a threat from the other side of the globe.....no one is a threat unless you provoke them & meddle with their affairs. You see, they are threatened by Iran's nuclear evolution....they're afraid that this way someone else might rise to power. If you have nothing to hide, you don't have to feel threatened & moreover, don't talk about othen nations making nuclear weapons when you have an amazing arsenal yourself, especially when you cannot even prove they have N weapons.

The americans should take care of terrorism inside the us rather than act like the world's saviours, especially if no one wants them to be that.


About the rep, indeed, it would be a good thing to comment & use your name too.

[Nin`]

I'm not going to flag certain posts individually, so I'll just address certain points raised here with this.

"We" are in Iraq and Afghanistan illegally, because even really, really good false pretexts remain illegitimate, and in any legal system, including Lex Talionis, the fruits of illegitimacy are also illegitimate. "Our" presence in these places inflames the environment (and the region), as well as providing legitimacy to the fight against "us". At this point intelligence indicates that practically all the opposition in Afghanistan (including all the "insurgents" from 3 months to 80 years old we are murdering in airstrikes) are Pushtun and affiliated tribes, and in Iraq, only about 1/20 of the "insurgents" (who are really the patriotic resistance in their eyes) are foreigners, and 12 of these are from Saudi Arabia, 4 from Yemen and the other 4 Syrian and Iranian. Yet we only hear of Iran or Syria. Are we going to attack Saudi Arabia and Yemen next, or does our dependence on them mean that they get a clean pass? The complete absence of effective reporting (only partially because the environment is too dangerous for reporters), combined with the idiocies of the congress and senate critters and the anti-Islamic malevolence and Israeli agenda in the Whitehouse are highly likely to lead us into further illegal wars of aggression in the near future. Is this a good thing?

Lets say you break into a house to steal the house owner's belongings (it doesn't have to be oil). Halfway through you see the owner coming home. Do you run out of the back door and hope nobody catches you, or do you set up an ambush in the hope of murdering them? The idiocy of remaining in a situation where nobody can win anything (except a deferral of the war crimes trials perhaps), but where thousands of Iraqis and hundreds of others are killed every month, and militants, American and Islamic are taught how to fight more nastily and hate more thoroughly is exactly equivalent to the latter case.

Ask yourself what "we" are doing there. What do you think is going to be "finished" by staying there (except for any lingering respect for the USA)? We have already wasted and committed to wasting over 2 trillion dollars without taking reparations into account (and a war crimes trial would undoubtedly award in excess of a trillion dollars in reparations for what we have "achieved" to date), and increased global "terrorism" and the number of "terrorists" intending to cause the US and UK damage by several hundred percent. I think we have also guaranteed the collapse of the Military dictatorship in Pakistan, which wouldn't be a bad thing only it is bound to be replaced by something far worse - which will of course be nuclear armed; as well as having contributed (along with the EU's blatantly bigoted exclusion of Turkey) to the downfall of the century old secular government of Turkey and its replacement with a radical Islamic government. As a final own goal, we have practically guaranteed that Israel is going to get into an all but unwinnable fight where we cannot intervene - and where the result will be the release by the Israelis of real "WMDs" (being nuclear and biological weapons, both of which Israel has in abundance). Finally we have effectively handed control of our Middle East foreign policy to Israel, irrespective of who is in the Whitehouse, because if Israel threatens to attack a third party, the US then is in the predicament that it needs to preemptively target the same party lest Israel trigger total chaos and $500/barrel oil with a consequent collapse of the International monetary system and western economies.

All this together with the undoubted lies of commission and omission used by the administration to get us into the wars they wanted - and the utter malfeasance demonstrated by Congress in their failure to resist them, combine to condemn us in the eyes of the world. This, combined with the scrapping of the US constitution in all but form in the face of a minor threat, may well result in the recognition of the fact that the Republic is no more (and perhaps hasn't been for a very long time.) What it ought to result in is an International Court putting our leaders on trial for waging wars of aggression and war crimes. While I no longer approve of capital punishment, the only appropriate alternative would be to sentence them to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole - hopefully in somewhere more humane than the prisons where we have been torturing people from around the globe including, from growing evidence, American citizens.

Do you really think that more murders and the continuing sacrifice of American servicemen and mercenaries (we now have more mercenaries in Iran than soldiers) however misguided they are (e.g. surveys indicate that over 70% of American servicemen continue to believe the Administrations lie that Iraq was involved in Q'aeda's 9/11 attacks despite the findings of every credible investigation that this is a blatant lie fabricated by the Whitehouse as part of massaging the facts to justify their invasion).

Saddam Hussein was "evil" to his neighbors only while the US supported him. Unfortunately the full extent of our perfidy has probably been buried along with him (in other words, a major reason for invading Iraq - to murder Saddam Hussein and his inner circle to stop their mouths - has been achieved). No matter how much you think he deserved replacing, he killed far fewer Iraqis, and alleviated, rather than exacerbated their poverty. If he is to be condemned for his ability to pump oil, make electricity, feed people and maintain stability in a secular state where women had equality and children (according to UNESCO) were better off and had a better future than in any other Middle Eastern country (except Jewish children in Israel), then what does that say about us? No matter how much you might imagine that he "deserved" replacing, nobody gave "us" the right to do that? Or do you think that the Islamic states now have the "right" to replace Bush & Co? Can you simply not see the hypocrisy or do you just not care?

We could have "had" bin Laden if we had wanted - by providing evidence of his crimes to an Afghan court - the Afghans offered extradition to Germany (despite no extradition treaty), if grounds to accept that bin Laden was guilty of a crime indictable under Afghan law were established in an extradition hearing before an Afghan court. Instead, we chose to invade and overthrow the Afghan government, replacing it with puppets from the same groupos as we fought against when established by the Soviets, at a cost of billions to ourselves and despite the fact that the Afghans had attempted to cooperate with the US.

This should be contrasted to the US refusing to deliver Luis Posada Carriles to Cuba or Venezuela despite an American court finding that the evidence that he engaged in terrorism while employed by the CIA and while associated with Cuban exile groups with close ties to the Bush family compelling, and the existence of a valid extradition agreement with Venezuela.

So we could have had bin Laden had we sought him. But we didn't. We had at least two occassions when we happened across his spoor in Afghanistan. And chose not to commit resources to his capture, facilitating his escape. According to Bush, he wasn't even regarded as significant. One might ask why not. Perhaps for the same reasons that he is not on the FBI's most wanted list?

Now we are supporting the tattered remnants of a grubby coup in Pakistan (so much for our love of democracy) which has, under our savage ministrations, established the ungovernable mountainous regions as a new training grounds for al Q'aeda and friends. We are not able to work there, not only because of the geography, but also because our actions have made us into a feared and hated enemy in a region that previously regarded us well (remember that this was where the US worked to overthrow the relatively much more legitimate puppet governments established by the USSR in Afghanistan) and has vendettas that continue for millennia. Had we worked at establishing policing and aid missions - we would have spent a fraction of the money, made friends everywhere and could have had all of those involved in al Q'aeda and any other groups we wanted arrested and brought to trial - or their heads served on platters if that had suited us better.

But then, I have had the benefit of living and working with tribal societies and dealing with terrorism, insurgents and guerrillas from a military and security perspective; and being quite familiar with the terrain and the complete impossibility of effective military actions in such environments, alternatives were needed. Which is how I knew that a military response was counterproductive, and an appropriate police/intelligence response the only sensible approach. What a pity the US couldn't find a few people with such knowledge and experience to talk to before practicing frottage on termite nests throughout the Middle East. Now, instead of dealing with the "terror threat" as the relatively insignificant probability it was, easily addressed in so far as it needed to be, by slightly improved aircraft security and greatly increased HUMINT efforts building informant networks, we have made half the world hate us and the other half fear us, while destroying our economy and social freedoms. Can you spell own goal?

Anything you may believe to the contrary is a result of the incompetent press and even more incompetent government misleading you, lying to you, feeding you with propaganda or just being stupidly wrong. Given the vast number of Internet resources available to anyone who is really interested in following what is happening, there is no excuse for ignorance on these matters.

Nin`

PS: Good morning TFF. *Raises a cup of coffee*

[Walter Sobchak]

Originally Posted by Blitz King

Our soldiers are out fighting for our freedom, and if yours don't do that well to bad.

No they aren't. This isn't Fox News, no need for extreme generalizations.

Originally Posted by Harmonize

If they don't like what they see, then resign.

They can't. They are being extended several times over.

And, to the lovely little myspace bulletin that was posted by Blitz King, what is your point? That soldiers have it tough? Yes they do. But homeless people have it tough. People in Africa have it tough. Women and children are slaughtered every day in the Sudan. Why are you so worried about a smaller group of people who have better chances than those at a true disadvantage?

[dimmufan]

Originally Posted by Blitz King

Well, you are not from the United States, now are you! Our soldiers are out fighting for our freedom, and if yours don't do that well to bad. In America you can not join the Army and then resign because you don't like what you see, you have to finish out you policy with them!!!

These soldiers are not fighting for OUR freedom. These American soldiers were fighting for the freedom of the Iraqi people. Freedom from the tyrrany of Saddam Hussein's rule. Not that he is no longer around, we really have no business in Iraq. The ONLY soldiers who fought for America's freedom were when America claimed its independence from England, and the first and second world war. America does not need to travel halfway around the world to protect the freedom of the American people. When you travel long distances to fight a war, you're protecting the freedoms of the peoples you are fighting for. Our soldiers joined the military to kill people and protect OUR borders. Maybe have money to go to college as well. If they don't like the military then yes, they can leave. The U.S. military is voluntary. The draft hasn't been implemented since, I believe, the Vietnam War.

As for my opinion on the matter, I don't like what Bush is doing to the countries and their inhabitants. America should have left Iraq a long time ago. As for Osama Bin Laden; He has training in the CIA. He knows how the American government thinks. He also has too many supporters to his cause. He will be caught when he wants to be.

[Blitz King]

Originally Posted by dimmufan

America does not need to travel halfway around the world to protect the freedom of the American people. When you travel long distances to fight a war, you're protecting the freedoms of the peoples you are fighting for.

You just said that they were protecting our freedom in WWI and WWII and guess what that was fought half way around the globe. We traveled long distance to fight for our freedom so it wouldn't be lost, along for other countries freedom. And to Harmonize, I knew that it couldn't be good or bad rep till I get 200 post, and Im sorry for not putting my name down I did not know that you had to. And don't ever call me a chicken again.

[Ayse]

Originally Posted by Blitz King

You just said that they were protecting our freedom in WWI and WWII and guess what that was fought half way around the globe. We traveled long distance to fight for our freedom so it wouldn't be lost, along for other countries freedom. And to Harmonize, I knew that it couldn't be good or bad rep till I get 200 post, and Im sorry for not putting my name down I did not know that you had to. And don't ever call me a chicken again.

What does WWI and WWII have to do with Iraq? They're wars on completely different matters. Iraq IS now free from evil, but America continue to keep their troops in the country. So where is the freedom of all of this? I sure as hell dont see any Americans claiming they dont have any freedom cause the Iraq's took it.

Also, if I wish to call you some sorta poultry, I will. Although, I was slightly tempted to just reply to this post with a huge CHIIICKKKEEENNNN in red font. Alas, I'm too big for that.

[Omega Weapon]

Let me tell you something:

The 2003 invasion of Iraq began on March 20, under the U.S. codename "Operation Iraqi Freedom."

Originally Posted by dimmufan

These soldiers are not fighting for OUR freedom. These American soldiers were fighting for the freedom of the Iraqi people. Freedom from the tyrrany of Saddam Hussein's rule. Not that he is no longer around, we really have no business in Iraq.

I agree will you pal, The American soldiers are not fighting for your freedom and not fighting for Iraqi people freedom anymore...

Saddam has gone, America has no reason to keep the troops in Iraq any longer..but it seems there is a reason :

President Bush has consistently referred to the Iraq war as "the central front in the War on Terror", and has argued that if the U.S. pulls out of Iraq, "terrorists will follow us here. While other proponents of the war have regularly echoed this assertion, as the conflict has dragged on, members of the U.S. Congress, the American public, and even U.S. troops have begun to question the connection between Iraq and the fight against terrorism. In particular, many leading intelligence experts have begun to argue that the war in Iraq is actually increasing terrorism.

President Bush is actually trying to keep the American people safe from terrorists attacks by using Iraq to be the main battle field and the Iraqi people are paying the price everyday and that bad, evil and nasty and because of this I am against any kind of wars..

Originally Posted by Harmonize

Also, if I wish to call you some sorta poultry, I will. Although, I was slightly tempted to just reply to this post with a huge CHIIICKKKEEENNNN in red font. Alas, I'm too big for that.

Take heed Harmonize..
You don't need to offend anyone just because He has a different point of view

- Omega Weapon.

[Sinister]

Originally Posted by Nin`

I'm not going to flag certain posts individually, so I'll just address certain points raised here with this.

"We" are in Iraq and Afghanistan illegally, because even really, really good false pretexts remain illegitimate, and in any legal system, including Lex Talionis, the fruits of illegitimacy are also illegitimate. "Our" presence in these places inflames the environment (and the region), as well as providing legitimacy to the fight against "us". At this point intelligence indicates that practically all the opposition in Afghanistan (including all the "insurgents" from 3 months to 80 years old we are murdering in airstrikes) are Pushtun and affiliated tribes, and in Iraq, only about 1/20 of the "insurgents" (who are really the patriotic resistance in their eyes) are foreigners, and 12 of these are from Saudi Arabia, 4 from Yemen and the other 4 Syrian and Iranian. Yet we only hear of Iran or Syria. Are we going to attack Saudi Arabia and Yemen next, or does our dependence on them mean that they get a clean pass? The complete absence of effective reporting (only partially because the environment is too dangerous for reporters), combined with the idiocies of the congress and senate critters and the anti-Islamic malevolence and Israeli agenda in the Whitehouse are highly likely to lead us into further illegal wars of aggression in the near future. Is this a good thing?

Nin, I am surprised at you! Invasions are always legal in the first person... "It is our Invasion." It is only in the third person, "Their Invasion." that it is illegal.

j/k
Rofl