[Gorath Sodom]

This is not a thread about pointless bashing on Christians, I am just putting out some legitimate concerns regarding how unorganized this religion is.


You have hundreds of denominations, and several denominations within denominations, or independent fellowships or perhaps just individuals. It seems this day everyone has their own way of interpreting the Holy Bible, I would almost wager that no two Christian's can agree on the passages of the bible as a whole. Surely all religions have their division points, but none so gargantuan as it is here.


What is even more disturbing than the facts that Christians preach against the secular, the heathens, the gays, et cetera, is the fact that different denominations of Christianity often can and will persecute one another.


And lot of Christians wonder why people don't come around to their point of views? I fathomed it would be obvious, but apparently it is not so. Well, it should be quite clear now.


On a less serious note, couldn't you guys rewrite the bible to make it more interesting? Something along the lines of making Jesus a modern day NYC pimp of African descent, whom wears a purple suit and pimp hat, whom's apostles are prostitutes who f*ck like animals to spread the words of Christ, and to cure the sickly he uses a divine marijuana leaf which only grows in Heaven. Is that really so much to ask? Compared to the horny Greek-Roman gods or war mongering Nordic gods, the pantheons of the Holy Bible are quite dull over all.

[Silver]

I know what you mean. I see myself as Christian, but I really don't agree with a lot of shit that goes down in many a denomination. I see it like this. God created us. God gave us free choice. If he really wanted us to be so strictly controlled by stupid regulations and restrictions, he should have made us more like robots. He could if he wanted to.

Say yes to free choice people.

[Draken Benvolaid]

I have to go with Celtic_Silver on that one. God gave us a choice and we choose what we want. Some are forced before they were born, and others never gave a thought to it. But we can choose if what is given to us is not for us.

The problem is people are too easily convinced that what the masses believe is what is always true. Not everything everyone believes is completely true. Back before the Americas were discovered, everyone believed that the world was flat, and condemned others for believing in something different.

Those who condemn others for archaic or new beliefs or non-religious actions are those living too far in the past. Saying anti-Semitic things that cause hatred between people are corrupting the world. Using propaganda to rally people together for your cause is not a cause worthy of fighting for.

Back in the early 1600s, people use the word "Witch" to condemn others for being better then themselves. This swayed people to believe evil is among them and tortured them to death. It was used as propaganda to convince others of something that was not true. But, it was what the masses believed that mattered, not the truth, and still holds today.

In certain areas in the US and around the world, people burn books saying that, "The devil printed them" when the book is entirely fiction. The "Harry Potter" books, for example, are burned in massive piles, and the people criticize and hate those who read the fiction book. Fiction is fantasy books that are not true, but many people don't understand what fiction is, so they push it away and try to destroy it, before ever realizing what it actually is.

People are convinced that what ever the larger groups think is true is, but sometimes isn’t. The majorities rules the world and they denounce others for thinking outside the box.

The radical and reactionary groups that claim that God said to do things, but it is just lies. Like the suicide bombers, where in any holy document or writing does it say "killing others is 100% good"? It doesn't, they actually says the opposite, "Thou Shall Not Kill"

The ones using faith as a cause to kill and do horrible things are using lies to control the people. People are too persuasive and sway too easily to things people say. The ones using lies and deceit to control the masses are the fallen ones.

And the bible was written centuries ago, the only thing that is different is how people translate it. Each way of thinking is different and can be slightly different then others. Many times people hate others for thinking that way, and kill each other over small details that are essentially the same thing.

Be who you are, not what everyone else wants you to be. If the world did this, then it would be a safer and kinder place for future generations.

[Angantyr]

Free will is too much of a broad topic really, I believe in most forms of freedom however Rules are put in place for a reason, however rules are made to be broken so what happens when we have no rules?

What I am concerned about is the stranglehold Christianity has on our lives, I would say even with the BoD, 75% of this forum is Christian but only like 14% of them take their beliefs seriously. I do not really care for criticizing religion as a whole and it annoys me how people who follow any belief whether Christian, Pagan, Buddhist etc... is treated as if they are living in a fantasy world, even though science has never truely proven or dis proven either.

I am an Asatru Pagan not because of believing when I die I will go to Valhalla and become and Einherjer to fight during Ragnarök, but because it is like a guide which teaches (not enforces) me about the world, the Pre-christian way of life. Plus Christianity is pessimistic whilst Paganism is much more Optimistic.

Originally Posted by Pimp Masta Gorathus

On a less serious note, couldn't you guys rewrite the bible to make it more interesting? Something along the lines of making Jesus a modern day NYC pimp of African descent, whom wears a purple suit and pimp hat, whom's apostles are prostitutes who f*ck like animals to spread the words of Christ, and to cure the sickly he uses a divine marijuana leaf which only grows in Heaven. Is that really so much to ask? Compared to the horny Greek-Roman gods or war mongering Nordic gods, the pantheons of the Holy Bible are quite dull over all.

Yeah, I found the bible extremely boring myself, partly why I became rather bored of it. Plus Christianity never felt right to me, must be my Nordic roots telling me something...

[Draken Benvolaid]

Originally Posted by Winter

Free will is too much of a broad topic really, I believe in most forms of freedom however Rules are put in place for a reason, however rules are made to be broken so what happens when we have no rules?

The need is to find a place between "Freedom" and "Justice"

With entire freedom, people can do what ever they want, to the point that they can kill others without punishment or being stopped. No one to protect the people, no one to keep people from dieing by the hands of others, No one to promote order inside the chaos.

With entire justice, people are condemned and controlled by the laws, a dictatorship if you will. This gives no rights and basically makes the people prisoner to laws.

All of a sudden giving total freedoms or justice from the entire opposite is not the answer. People wouldn’t know how to react to the opposite and may do things morally incorrect. Like defying the government with extremist ideas that destroy everything like the innocent. Or commit intense crimes such as rape, murder, and slavery.

The world need someplace that gives people the ability to believe what they want, but with the laws that protect them. The US is majority controlled, and may act irrational at times. Close, but not Paradise or a Heaven on Earth

When the middle is found, the world should follow to create peace. This may never happen as the world is too full of leaders of the fallen to accept true peace.

People never know true freedom or justice until they experience life without it.

[Rheathius]

I myself am a Christian, and believe in the Bible very literally, like VERY literally. I believe all those bible "fairy tales" are actually all true because i believe that the bible is God's word, BUT written by men. Meaning i believe the Bible is God's word but being written by man it dulls what God was really saying. When i read the Bible i believe in what is written as God's word but knowing it was written by man i ask God "what did you really mean by this?" so instead of asking the scribe i ask the author.

um...the denominations are really crazy. I think it just shows how humans are and that Christianity isn't really being run by God himself it's being run by humans. I believe there's strengths and weaknesses in each denomination and they all just need to get together and be humble and start to get along.

I believe that each person in EVERY religion has a responsibility to read what they believe on their own, to find out if what they believe is really what they believe. I'm willing to bet that if each Christian started to read the bible everyday and meditate on scripture everyday you'd start to see denominations dissolve. The only reason why we have so many denominations is because us humans like to create a god that fits our lives, so we can still be in control, we hate not being in control or having to change our inner selves because we all think we're an OK or good person, and if we think and know we're bad, we don't give a crap. Lots of Christians are fitting the bible to their lives, not the other way around. I mean if you're going to call yourself a Christian mine as well go 100% and believe all of it or none of it. That's why i don't like people who bash Christians or really anybody for a certain religion because i mean are you following your own beliefs 100%? if you're not, why demand that of someone else? why bash them for not doing that? that's ridiculous and mean really really mean.

Free-will is a gift from God go ahead and do whatever you want God doesn't want you to forcefully worship him, to forcefully pray to him. He wants you to willingly worship him and pray to him. That's why there's free-will so we can willingly worship God if we want to.

Christianity isn't pessimistic, to the humble it's optimistic, to the proud i guess it would be really really pessimistic.

If i stepped on anyones toes.....get over it

[Quistis]

You can truly live the word of God (or whatever you believe in) by seeing through your heart. I remember that being said in the Bible. But what I am trying to say, a lot of people (not only Christians) believe in their chosen religion without even thinking or contemplating on them deeply. Generalizing Christianity as a whole just by these denominations is a narrow way of thinking. I view people as individuals who should have their own PERSONAL relationship with God (or non-existence of God for the pagans out there). I was baptized and brought up as a Catholic. I follow the sacraments but my faith doesn't stop there. A lot of events in my life has strengthen my relationship with God. It's more of a personal level, and no one can bend my faith because of this. On the other hand, I don't judge other people for what they believe in. Like what Jesus said in the Bible "those who have not sinned can throw the stones (at Mary Magdalene)" (or something like that ^^).


I can also see the double standards here, how many people have bashed Islam because of the suicide bombings and all? Maybe only very few, why? Because of fear of being bombed? I am not saying that we should instigate them as well. But my point is, religion doesn't dictate our actions, we always had a choice.

From what I know, Islam doesn't teach people to kill, it just so happened that someone has twisted its words and used the people's anger to drive them to kill.

Christianity teaches us to be humble, but then a lot of Christians are too darn proud for their own good. There is a commandment that states that we should not kill. But how many Christians are now in prison for murder?


That is why stereotyping is bad. It's the same way of thinking that led Hitler to genocide.

[Walter Sobchak]

I don't understand the purpose of this thread. The different denominations are one of the reasons that Christianity is so big. It goes back to the idea of interpreting things on your own, and attaining personal salvation.

Originally Posted by Winter

What I am concerned about is the stranglehold Christianity has on our lives, I would say even with the BoD, 75% of this forum is Christian but only like 14% of them take their beliefs seriously.

Christian strangehold? In some areas, but not really. I am allowed to do whatever I want, whenever I want. A couple states north of me, there is a statue of the Ten Commandments, but thats about it. Big deal? Not so much. As bad as Bush or other fundamentals are, they don't push their religions down our throats, mainly because modern constitutions forbid it.

[Angantyr]

James Paul DeAmara - Most people in power have Christian beliefs, you would be surprised at the lack of Athiests running a country. Having such power leads them to the ability to dictate the law, but more importantly our moral system, I do not believe in the Christian moral system and think it is over the top and forced so many people into a state of hypocrisy always trying to justify what they shouldn't have done. I am very true to my beliefs and morals but due to what society dictates by the Judeo-Christian hands, I am "Racist", possibly "Sexist", "Evil" and "Inconsiderate"... truthfully I am not but the Xtian system says I am, I am a Realist.

[Jin]

How is that different from the athiest governments that have been established over the years? The Soviet Union, Communist China, etc. They were far more authoritarian on the grounds of religion and morality than any Christian country I can think of. A little more disestablishmentarianism would be great, but I hardly think that the Christian governments of the west are repressing the masses morally. I'd say it's safer to say that the majority is calling you a racist and a sexist, not their religions. Lest you be a victim.

Calling Christianity disorganized due to its many denominations caused by freedom of interpretation is like calling a democracy disorganized because it takes longer for things to be executed. Taking that freedom of interpretation away usually leads to a different use of the word "executed".

[Draken Benvolaid]

Originally Posted by Jintatsu

How is that different from the athiest governments that have been established over the years? The Soviet Union, Communist China, etc. They were far more authoritarian on the grounds of religion and morality than any Christian country I can think of. A little more disestablishmentarianism would be great, but I hardly think that the Christian governments of the west are repressing the masses morally. I'd say it's safer to say that the majority is calling you a racist and a sexist, not their religions. Lest you be a victim.

Calling Christianity disorganized due to its many denominations caused by freedom of interpretation is like calling a democracy disorganized because it takes longer for things to be executed. Taking that freedom of interpretation away usually leads to a different use of the word "executed".

I agree with you whole heartedly with that one.

The communistic governments chose to eliminate almost all religion, riding the public of morals that could change a person's mind. Combine that with a government controlled reeducation system, and you got a brainwashed public. So the majority is what the government is saying, not themselves.


For the western nations, majority still rules. They have a slower process that tries to ensure that they are doing the right thing, but it doesn't always come out right.

Take Iraq for instance. The US was so hyped up from 9/11, that they jumped down whoever's thought was sticking out furthest. I'm not saying that Saddam should have stayed in power. No, but now, the US is now the scapegoat for several different radical and reactionary organizations. The US should have had more confirmation than just suspicion. Because the majority was anxious about revenge, problems arose from not planning far enough ahead.


In most western nations, they try to make all religions have an equal right to worship, without the government affecting them. Certain things are prohibited, like religious sacrifice, but each person and group has a right to believe in what they want.

But, in trying to "cater" to each one's rights, they began to affect each other. Each religion saying that the others are inhibiting their rights to freedom of speech, and are unwilling to listen to others and settle disagreements. They turn to the government to act as the mediator that has no idea of what is going on. Several groups have tried to ban public displays, removal of religious holidays, and so forth, and actually won. Those actions instigate each religion it affects to fight back in the same way. The way it's going, most of the world could one day end up with no religion what so ever. That leads back to communism and a brainwashed society.

Freedom of speech has a different definition for everyone.

[neocleric]

hi guys,

i'm still a newbie and just browsing this forum, i found this thread to be very interesting. it's not just final fantasy stuff here, so i guess i'll be here for a while.

anyway, my thoughts on this topic is. it's just not about what religion a person have, but on how that person put it on practice. for example, those people who haven't heard about christianity, judaism or islam; i'm sure some (if not most) of those people will feed anyone who's dying of hunger, or offer a drink to those dying of thirst. my point is, there's this thing called conscience, and regardless how negative a person can be, it's there and it'll never stop, a part of us can hear, if not listens to that.

regardless of religion, there's no denying that we have the urge to care for others. on other people perspective, that could've been scientific or whatever, but for other, there's simply God or an Entity that cares.

good day everyone.

[Draken Benvolaid]

Originally Posted by neocleric

anyway, my thoughts on this topic is. it's just not about what religion a person have, but on how that person put it on practice. for example, those people who haven't heard about christianity, judaism or islam; i'm sure some (if not most) of those people will feed anyone who's dying of hunger, or offer a drink to those dying of thirst. my point is, there's this thing called conscience, and regardless how negative a person can be, it's there and it'll never stop, a part of us can hear, if not listens to that.

regardless of religion, there's no denying that we have the urge to care for others. on other people perspective, that could've been scientific or whatever, but for other, there's simply God or an Entity that cares.

good day everyone.

The actual problem with most religions is that the people are too worried about who is right and who is wrong, when they really should be focused on the teachings themselves and act upon them accordingly.

I've seen many people walk up to homeless on the street and say, "I'll give you something to eat, ONLY IF, you follow 'what ever religion they rep.'" Sort of making them pray to their religion in order to survive. Then each religion fights over the people telling that they are right, and the others are wrong. It happens all over the world.

Some times it survival of the fittest. The weak get left behind and the strong go on. Again, it's not right, but it happens.


For me, my conscience keeps me steady in life; I refer to them as my morals. They guide me and help me make the right choices in life. I choose to fight to protect, because my morals, resolve, and self-conviction tells me it's right. I won't stand by and do nothing as others ignore the same pleas for help.


I've seen where the morals of others could do many good things, but they were ignored. I think a person's conscience is sometimes overcome by their feelings of "Why should I?" to do anything. Many people see many things that are wrong and still do nothing, even though their religion may tell them to do something.

I wish people had their conscience with them all the time, than maybe, that little girl wouldn't have disappeared with everyone watching...


"The fallen ignore their conscience, drowning it in the sea of despair and then tell others to do the same..."


But I like your optimistic view on life. It can certainly lighten up someone's spirits...

...Maybe I forgot how to be truly happy again?

[Sinister]

Originally Posted by Quistis

But what I am trying to say, a lot of people (not only Christians) believe in their chosen religion without even thinking or contemplating on them deeply. Generalizing Christianity as a whole just by these denominations is a narrow way of thinking. I view people as individuals who should have their own PERSONAL relationship with God (or non-existence of God for the pagans out there). I was baptized and brought up as a Catholic. I follow the sacraments but my faith doesn't stop there. A lot of events in my life has strengthen my relationship with God. It's more of a personal level, and no one can bend my faith because of this. On the other hand, I don't judge other people for what they believe in. Like what Jesus said in the Bible "those who have not sinned can throw the stones (at Mary Magdalene)" (or something like that ^^).


I can also see the double standards here, how many people have bashed Islam because of the suicide bombings and all? Maybe only very few, why? Because of fear of being bombed? I am not saying that we should instigate them as well. But my point is, religion doesn't dictate our actions, we always had a choice.

From what I know, Islam doesn't teach people to kill, it just so happened that someone has twisted its words and used the people's anger to drive them to kill.

Christianity teaches us to be humble, but then a lot of Christians are too darn proud for their own good. There is a commandment that states that we should not kill. But how many Christians are now in prison for murder?


That is why stereotyping is bad. It's the same way of thinking that led Hitler to genocide.

Ladies and gentlemen may I present the most intelligent post in this entire thread. I was going to post a long disertation but I found that I no longer need to, Quistis has said all I was going to say and more.

People think that being a Christian is enough and take that title and use it to mean what every they want it to. It means that they can alienate a group of individuals they don't like. That has been done since the invention of religions. Depending on who they alienate, there is a different denomination. Catholics alienated free thinking. Southern Baptists alienated blacks. Protestants alienated Catholics. Pentecostals alienate anyone based upon their appearance. Anglicans and Puritans alienate anyone they see as being amoral or imoral.

I don't remember Jesus alienating anyone. He just made a few clear statements. He didn't alienate gays(that was old testament stuff) or lepers or poor people or prostitutes, in fact he stayed always near them and tried his best to help them through what he understood was their rough lot in life.

Anyway, study Quistis post and you'll find tremendous wisdom in what she's saying.

[Shiendar]

Three quarters of the United States are some kind of Christian. In many, many places, the usual way to get to know your neighbors or get help on bills is through the churches. It's sad for me to realize that you will get more help from people I generally have no respect for than the Government I have disdain for.

Unfortunently, most of the "alternative" religions have kind of an insular attitude.... just like their forebears.

[Nin`]

W0rd Gorath.

Originally Posted by Jintatsu

They were far more authoritarian on the grounds of religion and morality than any Christian country I can think of.

As a statement on Jintatsu's knowledge of history, I can accept this statement. As an historic statement, it is of course horribly wrong. Nothing is better at dividing people into camps and getting them to murder one another wholesale than religion. And the thousands of brands of Christianity have done this with regular monotony and more ferocity than most as soon as they gained the ability to do so.

The first victim was perhaps the once tolerant Rome, which became brutal and intolerant as soon as the Christian's took over. The "martyrs" did not die at the hands of pagans or dozens of belief groups scattered throughout Rome. They were one set of Christians killed off by another more aggressive brand. Very predictable considering that Christians are "forgiven" by their god thingies even before they have finished their maurauding of anyone else, including other sufficiently different Christians.

The next infamous victims were the gnostics and neoPlatonists of every stripe. Maniac monks manslaughtering and methodically murdering millions took over North Africa, the Mediterranean and latter all Europe.

"Kill them all, God will know his own" was not a concept articulated by an atheist any more than "Church, children, kitchen" was an atheist rallying call. Speaking of which, pograms are an ancient invention. But thoroughly Christian. After all, taught by Martin Luther ("On the Jews and their Lies") the Catholic Adolf was inspired to say, "I feel I do God's work when I scourge the Jew."

Consider that when the Moors won they ransomed their captives and end evantually sold the worthless individuals who were not ransomed as slaves. When the Christians won they wrote proudly of streets running kneedeep in blood for three days. Consider the Christian's wonderful behaviour in the Orient forcing the acceptance of English opium on the Chinese and Indian populations. Or in South America. Or in Africa. As Tutu put it, "Before the missionaries went to Africa, they (the Europeans) had the bibles and we (the Africans) had the diamonds. Afterwards that all changed." You could perhaps reserve a moments thought for the centuries long Christian behaviour of the Roman Catholics in Spain, Portugal and the Lowlands. Keywords to ponder Auto-da-fe, Albigensian, Cathar, Ireland, Thirty-years war.

Feeling inspired to study some real history yet Jintatsu?

Originally Posted by Jintatsu

Calling Christianity disorganized due to its many denominations caused by freedom of interpretation is like calling a democracy disorganized because it takes longer for things to be executed.

Not really. Christianity (like democracy) is both fundermentally and rationally flawed. Whether or not democracy is disorganized is dependent on, and due, to the people involved with carrying it out; so its pending. Christianity however (in terms of "self-truth" and logical functioning), as Gorath has already explained, is disorganized largely because of (religious) independent interpretation - which is more of a constant in memetic evolution. Its what I like to call "Chinese whisper syndrome".

Kind regards,

Nin`

[Jin]

Such irony.

Originally Posted by nin

Nothing is better at dividing people into camps and getting them to murder one another wholesale than religion. And the thousands of brands of Christianity have done this with regular monotony and more ferocity than most as soon as they gained the ability to do so.

Correction. Nothing gives them a larger excuse. How many times must it be said? Religion doesn't cause violence or intolerance, it just gives people an excuse; a guide line on how to do it. They'll do it either way and were long before religion was invented, none the less Christianity.

The first victim was perhaps the once tolerant Rome, which became brutal and intolerant as soon as the Christian's took over. The "martyrs" did not die at the hands of pagans or dozens of belief groups scattered throughout Rome. They were one set of Christians killed off by another more aggressive brand. Very predictable considering that Christians are "forgiven" by their god thingies even before they have finished their maurauding of anyone else, including other sufficiently different Christians.

The next infamous victims were the gnostics and neoPlatonists of every stripe. Maniac monks manslaughtering and methodically murdering millions took over North Africa, the Mediterranean and latter all Europe.

"Kill them all, God will know his own" was not a concept articulated by an atheist any more than "Church, children, kitchen" was an atheist rallying call. Speaking of which, pograms are an ancient invention. But thoroughly Christian. After all, taught by Martin Luther ("On the Jews and their Lies") the Catholic Adolf was inspired to say, "I feel I do God's work when I scourge the Jew."

Consider that when the Moors won they ransomed their captives and end evantually sold the worthless individuals who were not ransomed as slaves. When the Christians won they wrote proudly of streets running kneedeep in blood for three days. Consider the Christian's wonderful behaviour in the Orient forcing the acceptance of English opium on the Chinese and Indian populations. Or in South America. Or in Africa. As Tutu put it, "Before the missionaries went to Africa, they (the Europeans) had the bibles and we (the Africans) had the diamonds. Afterwards that all changed." You could perhaps reserve a moments thought for the centuries long Christian behaviour of the Roman Catholics in Spain, Portugal and the Lowlands. Keywords to ponder Auto-da-fe, Albigensian, Cathar, Ireland, Thirty-years war.

Feeling inspired to study some real history yet Jintatsu?

What are you trying to prove by this exactly? That people have died in the name of religion? If you're throwing historical accounts of dying via religious means at me, then you have no idea what this debate is about. If you'd look past your own pompousness for a minute you'd be able to see that no one is disputing that things of that nature happen. However, just as many if not more people have died in the name of "anti-religion", race warfare, class warfare, poltical warfare and every other way. Rome had mountains of violence and savagry before Christianity appeared, as did the rest of the world. Killing is a human property, with or without relgion it exists.

Not really. Christianity (like democracy) is both fundermentally and rationally flawed. Whether or not democracy is disorganized is dependent on, and due, to the people involved with carrying it out; so its pending. Christianity however (in terms of "self-truth" and logical functioning), as Gorath has already explained, is disorganized largely because of (religious) independent interpretation - which is more of a constant in memetic evolution. Its what I like to call "Chinese whisper syndrome".

Thank you for restating exactly what the author of this thread already said. However, that doesn't change the fact. Christianity (non Catholic) holds the bible as sole authority, not the church's leader. With a book as sole authority, how can it not be based on individual interpretation? It prevents large religious authorities like that of the Catholic church, which is the Church that you bitch about the most for its ill-deeds. So what do you want? Do you want the church to be powerful and have a lot of authority or do you want it to be disorganized? It can't be both, so why you bitch and moan about both is beyond me.

Seriously, do you honestly believe the world would be any better a place if religion left? If you actually think that then you don't have a clue, you really don't. You can regurgatate a text book as much as you want, but if you can't see the larger picture, then you're an absolute waste of my time.

[Draken Benvolaid]

Again, you beat me to the punch, Jintatsu...

Originally Posted by Nin'

Not really. Christianity (like democracy) is both fundermentally and rationally flawed. Whether or not democracy is disorganized is dependent on, and due, to the people involved with carrying it out; so its pending. Christianity however (in terms of "self-truth" and logical functioning), as Gorath has already explained, is disorganized largely because of (religious) independent interpretation - which is more of a constant in memetic evolution. Its what I like to call "Chinese whisper syndrome".

Originally Posted by Jintatsu

Seriously, do you honestly believe the world would be any better a place if religion left? If you actually think that then you don't have a clue, you really don't. You can regurgatate a text book as much as you want, but if you can't see the larger picture, then you're an absolute waste of my time.

But yeah, I agree.

Without religion the world wouldn't have the morals that shape a hospitable society. Way back before the Renaissance, in the Dark Ages, people did thing so unspeakable and horrifying, that it's probably against a rule if I were to post it here. That's because they never had ANY morals, ethics, or principles to look up to. All that ruled was chaos, hatred, and sin.

Yeah, some religions are just to the wrong side, like radical and reactionary groups in the Middle East, but not every religion views the world as such. As I posted before, I don't follow my religion 100% to the book, so to speak. I take what I truly know to be the best out of it and forge my morals and understandings out of it. Morals is what religions give us, the other parts are, in reality, supplementary.

"Until everyone realizes the true purpose of a religion and the actual teachings, the world will never be at peace with itself."


And also like Quistis said, most people are given a religion without being asked of which they prefer. It's what some are raised with and grow and learn upon. They're not really given a choice until the become adults. So a person's upbringing is also flawed.



Alright, everyone step back just a bit, and take a good look around them.
Everything in the world is flawed, both fundamentally and in practice, and not just the religions. Animals, humans, buildings, plants, the land, sea, and sky, the differences between good and evil..., the list is literally endless. Don't obsess with one thing like religion, or use it as a scapegoat for other things wrong with the world. What need to be done is for people to take responsibility for their actions and the actions of those they lead, not blame it on someone else or expect that someone else will do it. The world and everything in it is never going to be perfect, we only can make it close enough to live peacefully and happy with ourselves and other.



Now I ask you and any other atheist out there, if you see religion as flawed and unable to accept any as your own, then what shapes your morals, ethics, and principals in life? What views of the world prevents you from doing malevolent deeds to others and yourselves? Where do you look for guidance when you don't know what to do? Who do you turn to when you have a nervous breakdown or become an emotional wreck? If you look to others, then what if they're not there to help or the cause of the problem? Why do you act the way you do?

[Jin]

Originally Posted by Draken Benvolaid

Without religion the world wouldn't have the morals that shape a hospitable society. Way back before the Renaissance, in the Dark Ages, people did thing so unspeakable and horrifying, that it's probably against a rule if I were to post it here. That's because they never had ANY morals, ethics, or principles to look up to. All that ruled was chaos, hatred, and sin.

No, that's not what I said at all, don't put words in my mouth. I'm not on a campaign to bring religion to the world. I'm not particularily fond of it and its moral systems, but that isn't the point. There isn't any more violence without religion, but there isn't any less. Human beings are naturally violent creatures. People have to stop thinking like the idiot Rousseu for a moment and realize people are not naturally good creatures and that changing society won't do a damn think to cleanse them of "sin". Religion doesn't do it and the morality it creates is relative and usually ignored anyways. Religion is then used as an excuse to further someone's own end. Without religion, said person would just find something else to further his end. Kill the Kulaks, kill the Jews, kill the heathens, kill the religious and the world will be a better place. Everyone who believes that humans can be fundamentally good as long as society is changed is dangerous and they always find themselves a scapegoat. That's why, religion or not, humanity will be brutal and savage.

Now I ask you and any other atheist out there, if you see religion as flawed and unable to accept any as your own, then what shapes your morals, ethics, and principals in life? What views of the world prevents you from doing malevolent deeds to others and yourselves? Where do you look for guidance when you don't know what to do? Who do you turn to when you have a nervous breakdown or become an emotional wreck? If you look to others, then what if they're not there to help or the cause of the problem? Why do you act the way you do?

Themselves. Although I cannot believe in deities, I do believe in myself. And religion doesn't really stop that many people from performing malevolent deeds either.

It's so silly for athiests and theists alike to treat religion as more than it is.

[Zeddicus]

Originally Posted by Jintatsu

It's so silly for athiests and theists alike to treat religion as more than it is.

then what is your definition of religion? For to make a statement like that you must already have a definition of religion.

I've read over ALMOST every single post in here, as if there's a lot or anything, but i just felt the need to step in and say something, me being the "Bible thumping" Christian and all.

To Nin- From what i've read, you like to blame Christianity for the start of so much bloodshed on the earth, which actually is partly true to the Bible. I mean, God totally kills off a man for simply touching the ark of the covenant which looks like an everyday sort of treasure chest, he kills him off. In another part God orders David to wipe out an entire race of people, that means not only kill the men, but also the women and children. Yet another time is when Elijah called fire down from heaven and he wiped 5,000 false priests who were worshiping a false god. So yes, you can blame God for a lot of death, oh yeah, i almost forgot the flood? yeah God did that too, but he vowed to never do that again. So God has killed a lot of people. Here's the thing though, God ORDERED them to kill those people, i highly doubt God would order the Crusaders to go and kill the Jews, and order Adolf Hitler to kill the Jews. You see, here's what you're doing with what you're saying. You are taking what humans have done in the name of Christ and thus said to your heart "that must be the result of what the Bible teaches" and to be quite honest with you, sure God ordered death on people, but you're forgetting about Jesus Christ who came to fulfill the law (the ten commandments) so therefore, there is no more killing, of anybody, because Christ is the ultimate sacrifice for all death. That's why were eternal beings, life doesn't end when we physically die, eternity just begins in either heaven, or hell. Anyways, enough preaching, basically from what you've seen in history and what people have done in the name of Christ, you automatically assume that Christianity teaches this in the Bible. I highly doubt you've ever read the Bible and tried to see if what these Christians were doing, was actually what Jesus Christ taught in the Bible, i smell a lot of assumption on your part, and you haven't taken the thought to read the Bible and see for yourself, you see, you prejudge the Bible and Christianity, you judge rightly on those Christians who did those horrible deeds in the name of Christ, but you misjudge the Bible. If you ever are going to read it to see, i would seriously read Matthew 5-7 which is the sermon on the mount, which is the only sermon Jesus preached to the masses. So bottom line what im saying to you, is you misjudge the Bible. If you do end up reading the Bible and still find offense, then the offense isn't with Christians, it's with God himself and His word, so take it up with him, argue and question Him, that's what i do when i find offense with God, and it only makes my faith stronger because God usually gives me really good answer that makes me realize i've been really retarded to ever be offended in the first place. A lot of people find offense with God and therefore don't follow him, that's fine with me, but instead of just walking away bitter, why not ask and find out, maybe God had a really really good logical reason, i mean he is God after all, i would tend to think he has a better view of what's going on than you do.

Men are truly full of pride

God Bless

Rob