Seekers of Illumination

[joesteel64]

Make that three members, Sin and T.G.O.

It's been a rough break, but I now have an idea what my classes are going to be like this semester, and since this site isn't blocked by school filters, and I have three hours of lab time a day....yeah, i'm going to be on a lot more.

I agree Sin, that maybe it should shift more to a philosophical than religious focus, though isn't religion a form of philosophy, so to speak?

Anyway, yes, I'll be able to help keep things going, and am willing to dedicate my time to said club.


Also, on an interesting note, I've been thinking a lot about becoming a christian! just thought i'd share


~joe

[T.G. Oskar]

Three answers...amazing. I knew ultimatums worked every now and then.

Welcome back, Joe. Hope the stay is much longer than expected.

Now, back to business. Indeed, Sinister has brought up a possibility I have not considered, since the idea of massive reconsideration of the club eluded my thoughts. Perhaps was the idea that besides being a discussion thread club outside of Intellectual Discussion, it also was a faction. If we are to reconsider the goals of the club, it is imperative to discuss if the club as a whole will reconsider remaining a faction, or a club focused on Intellectual Discussion (debate club? Now that I think about it...)

Since, during the terms of the ultimatum, I mentioned that whichever idea first supported would receive my approval, I believe it is acceptable that the shift of focus be implemented. Yet, since that would mean the change of focus would affect our status (granted, we were not much of a 'faction' as a whole, but people who entered were willing to participate), I propose a last discussion, which would end on next Monday. After that, I'll suggest the thread archival, and I'll make the new thread, to reflect the changes.

Will the new Seekers, now focused on philosophical discussion, keep their standing as a faction, or rather remain within the area of discussion only? Ideas, as always, are well appreciated.

I thank you for keeping in touch with the club every now and then. I assume I turned a bit into a lurker, but that was because the main reason I lurk in the forums (here) was getting inactive. Glad to know people are willing to keep going on.

[Pablo Honey]

I say revamp it. I'm not sure I'm a 'member', and I know you always had a bit of an issue with me, TGO. I don't really mind.

This club is clearly not working. I don't mean to offend with that. It's just that...I don't know. Maybe it's the formula, maybe it's just the lack of interest. A new look would do you good love, I think.

Regardless, I'm following Celtic. I am never going to find God. It's just not happening, at all. I tried, I did. But there are too many holes in it. I know it's almost impossible that everything we know is coincidental...but the idea of 'god' seems more impossible to me.

I'll just have to go back to 'exposing' my opinions elsewhere, haha.

Good luck with the new club, or the rest of this one, whatever you choose. May your deity be with you; but, TGO, as OmniSin once advised me: make sure your mind doesn't get too closed that it gets no air. Consider, question. Something in me tells me that something in you wants to do that. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. Anyway.

A bientot et bonne chance,

Govinda

[joesteel64]

Will the new Seekers, now focused on philosophical discussion, keep their standing as a faction, or rather remain within the area of discussion only?

hmm, I'm not sure if this answer will work, but even if the focus was on philosophy, wouldn't it still be possible to remain a faction? After all, many of the philosophers of the Ancient China, Greece, as well as the modern day, seemed to find philosophies that people were able to live better lives by, thereby serving the light, and whatever deities it may include, albeit in an indirect way.

So, the idea of philosophical, discussion, which would naturally include religion anyway, since religion provides people with philosophy on life, while remaining a faction of light, seems to be an excellent idea. After all, intellectual and philosophical, are both important to enlightenment, illumination, as a whole.


-Joe

[T.G. Oskar]

@Govinda: what that you aren't considered a member? Of course you are still considered!! I may sound a bit rough at times, but I've found that only to a very select group of things I am able to say no. Drugs, booze, evil, changing my identity; that's a load of no-no's. But refusing to hear someone? I can't find to say no to that. I'm always ears to new opinions, however harsh they may sound.

Don't take offense for opinions. I do understand that probably you might consider criticism something I'd consider an offense, but that's why I asked for action, for ideas. I knew this wasn't working properly, that people were pulled more to the idea of discussion than on religion or RPBing. That is why I am suggesting the change of goals. Even if you are unable to find God in any way, as hard as you try, that does not mean your opinions aren't welcome. That I would take as an offense.

In other terms, I do try to question things. I do not take things by granted. But I am always open to possibilities. And so do I consider everyone also has such chance. Maybe now you and Celtic and all those who question profoundly about things may have a meeting with faith, just as much as I might probably find a reason to believe in the inexistence, or inaction, of God. I don't know if that'll ever happen, but I believe it might happen eventually. As I accept your proposal of preventing my beliefs to close my mind on things, I'd also recommend never to close your mind to possibility. Never say never, I say. I just don't take all my time on meditating about things, because I have a life to live, and things to do.

And one more thing: I think we are being too polite when speaking to each other. Waaaay too polite. Someone is going to be offended at any moment, and you can't do much to fix it.

In other terms...

I would like more reasons why we should or should not remain a faction. If we are to expand, to broaden our horizons as a club, then tightly remaining as a faction would undermine the efforts. To see ourselves as a faction of Light would cause an opinion of being excessively religious and would cause some potential candidates for the club to refrain from entering. Just consider the last club change...we tried to remain in a sense true to the core concepts of the club, and still we remained as the Christian club, despite opening doors to other members. One of the main reasons was our consideration as a faction of 'Light', clearly opposing a faction of 'Darkness'. That labeled us.

The reason I find hard to part with the idea of a faction lies within the core reason of the club's foundation. The ideas of discussion were born from the daily forthcomings of the club, but the main idea was simple: be the 'good guys' in the RPBs and RPs. That is why the club could not progress: we weren't looking for philosophers or debaters, but for good writers that could hold a candle at RPing. If we are to change, we must either focus on the discussions, or remain with the core concepts while broadening further on the memberships, and remain in the status quo. This is why I ask for ideas: because I can't find a real reason why we should remain a faction with the overall change. I am still listening to opinions within the matter.

That does not mean we can't be a faction, though. Maybe...maybe our war lies in a different direction. Perhaps we don't have to fight on the RP section: perhaps we can 'illustrate' with further impetus on the ID section of the forum, where the battle heats with equal intensity. That's an idea, but perhaps one so radical neither the members nor the mods and admins (especially Colt) would agree to. It would be impressive to see how a group of people with essentially diverse ideas take a position and defend it with all that volley of terms, until the point the discussion is over because of our intervention, even to the point people begin to agree with us. Or something like that...too ambitious to be allowed.

So, if anyone is willing to expand on whether we can remain a faction and become a more discussion-inclined club, or any similar ideas, please do explain. I at least don't want to see people part ways because they feel uncomfortable with the stay, with the rules. In fact, all of the opposite: I'd like people like Gov and Celtic to stay, and speak until they are at a loss of words. Personal beliefs should not be a cause of secession, but rather a way people can be tied (even if the main result is polite bickering: indeed, long-time rivals can eventually discover friendship in the weirdest of ways, such as constant, but respectful debating)

[Sinister]

Hmm, I certainly see your quandary. But we have ceased RP activity as well. Perhaps we should gear it more towards RPing then? Philosophy being a mere background to justify the good guy background. Rather than being a congregation of RPers with Christian tendencies. We could still be the good guys. A cloister of devoted members of a clandestine company devoted to pure thought, reverence and philosophy. Forming a company of elite and concentrated RPers.

Just a thought. We would be small, but not without allies. I could have some of my club come to our aid if we need them in a cross-club RPB/RP. We could also keep the name but it would be better for a change so we could draw a few new members to our ranks. Good Rping should be their main selling point and we should be selective, too.

-Sin

[Silver]

TGO, that last post of yours was rather... interesting.
Say I was to stay, which I just might regardless of my last little performance, could I stay true to my own ideas and ideals without being a hindrance to the club?

I know my loyalties do lie with the people I care about moreso than God, BUT if you don't mind that so much and think I still could be an asset to your idea of how you wish this club to run, consider yourself having both an active member and an RPer if you need one.
Otherwise...
So long, take care, see you around, remember to have fun, peace.

[Pablo Honey]

That was...unexpected. I like it.

I'm crap at discussing philosophy, I've never RPB'd in my life, but I'll help out if you have need of anyone in the future. I hereby pledge my allegiance to...etc. But only far, far less serious.

I'll try and keep my mind open to new things, I always do. It's just that belief is rather a big new thing, haha.

I hope you know where I stand now.

Ta,

Govindar

[T.G. Oskar]

Celtic, Govinda, I knew you'd be interested in that last post. Indeed, I feel people like you have lots to invest in the club, despite personal beliefs. I ain't the kind of guy that restricts people's right to expose their opinions (hence why we are on a forum), but I was running a club that had a large baggage. I'd love to see you guys in action, despite how different your ideas are from the rest, or how skilled in discussion you are. Wildly divergent thoughts, set in motion and faced against others, can spark truths, or at least allow people to realize those views that are blatantly wrong (like post-modernism, pleading an excuse if any of you guys follow post-modernism). Strength in belief is something that's not born with or developed by seclusion, but rather by facing the other beliefs right in the face. That does not mean having a strong religious belief will lead to closed-mindedness: quite the opposite, it should allow a strength of belief coupled with an open mind. Also, please consider the opposite side: while it seems to be easy to bash religion by considering strong faith as equal to closed-mindedness, profound belief on a philosophy of life or even to blatantly oppose religion can lead to the same degree of closed-mindedness. I do not refer to you guys, I expect you to understand. I seriously do not believe those people that request me to open my mind and question everything to have a mind so closed to religion and actually refuse to think the other way (you have definitely exposed your failed attempts, which is proof enough). I can only explain that thought with an old proverb, which I know from Spanish but perhaps you might have heard: "Preaching Moral on underwear".

Still, I do have difficulties with the change in politics, and the status as a faction. If we are to open our frontiers, we will have eventually nihilists, atheists, agnostics, and people who simply care little about philosophy, both believing in altruism and malevolence. If we are to request the sole restriction to be the belief in altruism, we are effectively returning to square one, since altruism and religion (most notably Christianism, but not limited to it, despite the annals of history to prove otherwise) are often considered intricately linked. It is perfectly possible to be good and not believe in God, but stereotypes will always act against us. Since I do not know how much exactly Govinda and Celtic are in their belief on altruism, it would be against the very change we seek. If we are to remain a faction of Light and Good, the members must at least be good, be altruistic if only in the following of definition. This will work against those people that might seek to join the club, and have a strong belief on the worthlessness of humanity. That, I expect you to understand Sinister, is the greatest of my conflicts. If we are to remain a faction, we must at least request minimal belief in altruism, and that is tying ourselves to the old ideal. However...

...and this is a most personal opinion, I really would like the guild to remain as a faction. That idea of defending the side of altruism, if only in fictional combat, was the most defining hook to me joining here. That is something I can't seem to part with, and that is the reason I seek your advice. Celtic, I recall you said that if I were to respect your ideals, and actually not be bothered by them, you'd come back. And Sinister, I know that you as much as I do, wish to keep the faction business (or so I think). If there's a happy medium, I will seek to keep to that as much as I can. But, if the change of the club will cause us to cease being a faction, or if faction is so important that the club will still remain to be seen as the "God's Club", despite efforts to the contrary, eventually someone will be unhappy about that and leave. And what I seek is unity in this trascendental moment. There must be a way to keep both, or a way to make the club work without the main selling point (blatantly speaking, be the enemies of the BoD, if only faction-wise: that does not mean they're bad people; it's more like wrestling where their characters are the ones the fans hate, but they can be as amiable as you or I. I like the idea of a faction war, if only because of my admiration for wrestling, fantasy, and similar concepts).

So, as I often ask, please, keep the opinions running. No idea is too stupid or too redundant to not be exposed, nor offensive or admirable enough.