[Elhona]

Alright, we all know that Hojo used Jenova's cells to create Sephiroth. After seeing how Sephiroth had turned out he tried cloning him. Whose to say Hojo hadn't tried cloning Jenova as well. If she was cloned successfully, what would she be like. Would she know she was a clone? If not what would happen when she found out? How would the events in FFVII differ if there was a Jenova clone?

[Rasler]

...
Of course the game would be different.
There would effectively be 2 Jenovas.
More Jenova cells, more Sephiroth appearances, and more leftover jenova cells to create Jenova SYNTHESIS in the Northern Crater.

The Sephiroth "Clones" were infact not clones, but people showered in mako and augmented with Jenova cells. This later allows Sephiroth, encased in pure mako, to control these people due to his Jenova splicing done pre-birth. Sephiroth could astral-project himself using actual pieces of Jenova as a base for him to implement his conciousness. (Explaining how he appears multiple times his size and can fly around) Those were not clones. Mere projections.

I dislike story augmenting. It shows little respect for the story writers and storyboarders. It almost always ruins the established original story and causes overall disenchantment with whatever you're changing.

[Elhona]

I don't want to change the story. I don't think it would be nearly as good if there was a Jenova clone. I am just simply putting out an idea and seeing everyones opinion on it. Basically a " what if ".

[Kilana]

probably destroy everthing or have sephiroth do it

[Elhona]

Heh, well you can't get much more Jenova then that.

[Rasler]

According to the FFVII Ultimania Omega guide, written by the folks who MADE FFVII, except for the whole crashing into the planet, killing the Ancients, and attacking the party at the end of the game, all of Jenova's actions are controlled by Sephiroth.

So... in short, everything Jenova did from the time Sephiroth stole her head to the Jenova SYNTEHESIS battle, was controlled by Sephiroth.

[Anomaly]

Actually what you're talking about may have already happened. The GENESIS project...if it truly does exist, will be referenced as a special cut scene at the end of Dirge of Cerberus and is the basis for the veents of Crisis Core.

But we'll see, eh?

Still, Hojo can't actually 'clone' anything...he can just spread Jenova's cells around.

[Palazzo]

Originally Posted by Wyatt Arkham

According to the FFVII Ultimania Omega guide, written by the folks who MADE FFVII, except for the whole crashing into the planet, killing the Ancients, and attacking the party at the end of the game, all of Jenova's actions are controlled by Sephiroth.

So... in short, everything Jenova did from the time Sephiroth stole her head to the Jenova SYNTEHESIS battle, was controlled by Sephiroth.

Wasn't it written by some comapny called Studio BentStuff? As far as I know, they're not Square Enix.

Also, wasn't it released in 2005 or something? They blatantly changed the actual villain to Sephiroth to please all those Sephy fanboys.

[Rasler]

Hrm...
Lemme check on that. My sources are very rarely incorrect, but they have been mistaken before...

And in my opinion, Jenova makes for a better villain.

[Palazzo]

I couldn't agree with you more on Jenova making for a better villain.

[Anomaly]

Yes Palazzo, you're views are nigh constantly rammed down our throats. XD

For your info though, I OWN the Final Fanmtasy VII Ultimania Omega guide in its original japanesse. I was only EDITED by Studio Bentstuff. It was PUBLISHED by Square Enix. It was however released in 2005, but mentions every game in the FFVII compilation as well as Advent Children.

Though here's something you might enjoy Palazzo my dear boy. A quote from the 'Reunion Files', a Advent Children and Compilation specific book that was printed in both japanesse and english, first printing May 06 2006. Page 117 under 'Untold Stories From the Making' reads as follows...

"During the initial development phase, we didn't really have a very specific reason as to why Sephiroth would come back to see Cloud. I mean, we had a vague reason, but it wasn't very clearly laid out. Various ideas were put on the table, such as having Cloud be the only one who can see Sephiroth, etc. But towards the end, they solidified into the idea that it was actually Jenova's will, not Sephiroths."

Why is this a bad thing? For that you only need ot turn to the Ultimania Omega Guide and see that it runs completely counter to what has been previously established in the original game. while Last Orders could mess with plot points here and there, they couldn't make such a monumental shift as would allow Jenova to be the main villain...at least for the purposes of the movie.

I will quote the English translations from a sizable chunk of the main body of text.

**Jenova Relation 2: The Reunion* (005.1B)
Due to its amazing regeneration capabilities, Jenova's divided cells reunite
to become one again.

5 years ago, Sephiroth fell into the Lifestream holding the head of Jenova,
going to the Northern Crater, where the Planet's energy is concentrated, and
where he would begin the Reunion -- and assuring his restoration -- by
focusing through Jenova's cells. This regeneration was to be carried out by
way of the Reunion, as the scattered Sephiroth Clones (-->P.213) would begin
migrating toward the Northern Crater.

(Accompanying screenshot caption 1)
The Reunion is an ability of Jenova, but Sephiroth instructs the Sephiroth
Clones in the role of their master.

(Accompanying screenshot caption 2)
The main body of Jenova began migrating from the Shin-Ra headquarters because
of the Reunion. The Jenova cells in Cloud received the call of the Reunion the
same as those of the mimiced form.


*The movement of Jenova's main body for the Reunion*
Excavated 30 years ago, Jenova became the experimental material for the Jenova
Project and was placed in the Mt. Nibel mako reactor.

Jenova remained in the Mt. Nibel reactor until five years before the game,
when Sephiroth -- having learned the secret of his birth -- took off its head,
which fell with him into the bottom of the reactor. The now headless main body
that was left in the reactor was -- by Hojo's instruction and after being
utilized in the Sephiroth Clones experiment -- transported to the Shin-Ra
building.

Shortly after Cloud was apprehended when he broke into the Shin-Ra building to
rescue Aerith, the Reunion began. Hojo expected the headless main body to be
the focal point for the Reunion once it began, but in reality, it was the
Northern Crater. The scattered Sephiroth Clones and the main body of Jenova
within the Shin-Ra building all began to move. Jenova shattered its
containment case, murdered President Shinra, escaped from the Shin-Ra
building and began to wander the world. Now, Jenova's mimic abilities caused
the main body to take on Sephiroth's voice and appearance, which it kept
hereafter during its appearances in various places.

(Accompanying screenshot caption 1)
The head of Jenova from the Mt. Nibel mako reactor -- which fell into the
hands of Sephiroth -- had an influence on the focal point of the Reunion.

(Accompanying screenshot caption 2)
The shape of Sephiroth was assumed by Jenova's main body. It is in this form
that it is seen committing murders.


*The path of Jenova's main body, which came from the Shin-Ra building*
In the Story Playback section (-->P.66), the conduct of the mimetic main body
of Jenova [having taken Sephiroth's form] and that of the Sephiroth Clones
were listed in the "Black sheep information" columns. Here, those specifically
regarding the main body of Jenova have been collected.

Kalm
Black sheep information 1 (-->P.104)

Eastern grassy plains~Chocobo Farm
Black sheep information 2 (-->P.104)

Swamp lands~Mythril Mines
*Kills a Midgar Zolom while passing through

Junon~Cargo ship
Black sheep information 3 (-->P.111)
*Meets Cloud in the hold and leaves a section of its body [Jenova-BIRTH]
before escaping

Costa del Sol
Black sheep information 4 (-->P.112)
*The place where it emerged from underwater is seen

Mt. Corel
Black sheep information 5 (-->P.118)

Gold Saucer~Gongaga area
Black sheep information 8 (-->P.124)

Nibelheim
*Urges Cloud to participate in the Reunion

Bone Village
Black sheep information 11 (-->P.148)

Temple of the Ancients
*Acquires the Black Materia

Forgotten Capital
*Kills Aerith and leaves another section of its body [Jenova-LIFE] while
escaping

Northern Crater
*Participates in Sephiroth's Reunion



**Jenova Relation 3: The Sephiroth Clones** (005.1C)
5 years ago, immediately after Sephiroth fell into the Mt. Nibel mako reactor,
Jenova's main body -- which had been left behind -- was utilized by Hojo for
an experiment. This plan -- which Hojo intended to use to prove his Jenova
Reunion Theory -- was called "the Sephiroth Clones Project."

The experiment's procedure -- which involved injecting cells taken from the
headless body of Jenova into the subjects and exposing them to mako -- doesn't
differ from the manufacturing procedure for SOLDIERs. The largest difference
is that SOLDIERs are selected from a prime field, being strong of mind and
body and able to withstand the experiment uninfluenced by Jenova's cells,
whereas the Clones' fragile minds leave them as "portions" of Jenova. The
subjects of the Sephiroth Clones Project were the survivors of the Nibelheim
incident, with absolutely no thought given to sorting them as with SOLDIER,
and -- being unable to maintain their egos -- they lose the ability to live a
normal human life.

With the Sephiroth Clones, as part of the experiment, an identification number
was engraved somewhere into their bodies. Cloud was a Sephiroth Clone, but
received no number due to the "failure work" (referenced in the article
below). Cloud's obsessive drive to chase Sephiroth and settle everything over
the thoughts of him taking his hometown -- at any cost to and an indifference
for himself -- is much the same as that of the Jenova cells.

(Accompanying screenshot caption)
After Sephiroth reduced Nibelheim to ashes, it was reconstructed and the
movements of the Sephiroth Clones observed, though with little concern for
their well-being.

That is Squares story...not fanfiction Palazzo.
Tough break, but you'll just have to wait and see what the deal is with the GENESIS project if you wish to continue holding out hope.

[Palazzo]

Exactly, pusblished by SE. Not written.

And were those two quotes you posted supposed to prove that Sephiroth was the actual villain?

IMO, they both prove that Jenova was.

[Anomaly]

Well I'd love to hear how you reached that conclusion. The logic employeed would likely revolutionize modern thinking. Maybe in another thread though.

I'll check the author if it helps.

right, for Reunion files, its all a collection of quotes by the Advent Children team and those who worked on it. Mostly Tetsuya Nomura, the director of Advent Children, Takayuki Takeya that did most oif the creature and vehicle design, Nobuo Uematsu and the others who arranged music, the CGI team, various voice actos, etc. Mostly it would seem to be quotes from Nomura himself, however. So in this regard saying it is published by SE is the same as saying it is written by them, because it was those who worked on the movie itself that are quoted.

for the Ultimani Omega Guide....hmmm...Tetsuya Nomura again...

Well, there you go.

[Palazzo]

The second quote doesn't even do anything to disprove my point.

All it says is that it was Sephiroth who made the clones come to him so he could regenerate and that it was Jenova that actually did all the killing throughout the game and nothing about Sephiroth controlling Jenova (or vice versa).

But tell me, which of what I said above is more villainous?

[Anomaly]

***Sephiroth's will and Jenova's will*** (Page 53)
The Sephiroth clones seen in various locations continue gathering for the
Reunion. Seemingly, the will of Jenova as a human is the result of it
consuming Sephiroth's spirit; in actuality, Sephiroth is controlling Jenova.

(Accompanying screenshot caption)
Sephiroth's voice is heard through his "mother," Jenova, as applied through
its cells in the Sephiroth Clones.

***As for those which have been chased so far*** (Page 163)
Before the battle with Jenova-DEATH, the words of one of the Sephiroth Clones
in line for the Reunion offers an indication of the truth: those who carried
Jenova's cells were given the mission of bringing the Black Materia to their
master, Sephiroth. The fact of the matter is that the "Sephiroth" Cloud saw in
various places was not Sephiroth himself, but rather the body of Jenova from
the Shin-Ra building mimicing his form.

Following quote is from in game before the battle with JENOVA-Death

Sephiroth: This is the end... for all of you.

Sephiroth slashed away two black figures.

Cloud: Sephiroth!!

Cid: This is the end!

Sephiroth: You're right. This is the end of this body's usefulness.
(disappeared)

Cloud: He disappeared!?

Tifa: He might still be nearby......

???: Our purpose is to deliver the Black Materia to our master.

Cloud: Our...?

Cid: Hey, hey! What's goin' on?

???: Those who carry Jenova's cells...

Cloud: Master...!?

???: Of course... Sephiroth. Heh, heh, heh...

So the fact that the body of Jenova's cells that killed Aeris and Cloud chased throughout the game very clearly calls Sephiroth its master means nothing to you?

Believe whatever you like, I'd just appreciate it if you stopped trying to be offensive when I don't even care to disagree with you. I'm only telling you Nomura was the one that made the decision to have Sephiroth be in Advent children and to make him the main villain of it at all.

It may yet be proven that Jenova is the ultimate villain thanks to the Genesis project...however, as of now, Sephiroth is considered to be the main villain of FF7 thanks to the evidence of Advent Children and the accompanying body of work of the Ultimania Omega Guide.

[Palazzo]

I'm not the one being offensive.

You continue to believe what you want and I'll continue to believe what I want and not see a book and mediocre film released to please fanboys as great evidence.

[Rasler]

Look, both of you. Stop the arguing. Stop. Just stop it. It's getting irritating.

Yes, it does appear that story holes or open-ended questions from the game that were answered in the book were engineered in such a way to please "the Sephiroth fanboys."

However, Nomura (The man in charge of FF7, who has much of the creative authority for FF7), wants it that way. A little irritating, but official.

Feel free to continue believing what you want, but keep in mind that you're wrong.

As for this Ultimania Omega Guide business:
Published By Square-Enix (Digicube was S-E's publishing subsidiary, but it's now defunct)
Edited by Bentstuff (I assume for simple proofreading and translation accuracy)
Written by (Some Japanese moon-scribble that I cannot read)

[Palazzo]

It's called debating. Funnily enough, that's one thing a forum is for.

[Drake Teglen]

I debate that funnily is not a word. Prove me wrong!

(This is a joke by the way.)

[Shiendar]

Funnily is pretty much an idioms. Argue them elsewhere.