Catholicism = Christianity?

[Sasquatch]

So...well? Is Catholicism merely a denomination of Christianity, or is it an entirely seperate religion?

I believe it's a seperate religion. Yes, it has some similarities to Christianity, but it's branched way too far off. It is as much Christianity as Mormonism and Jehova's Witnesses are Christianity (which, by the way, they're not). There are myriads of differences between Catholicism and Christianity -- the manipulations and misinterpretations of the Bible, along with additions to and subtractions from the Bible contradict Christianity. Non-Biblical beliefs concerning salvation, behavior, redemption, forgiveness, the afterlife, and many other subjects set it apart from any type of Christianity.

I believe that Catholicism and Christianity are different religions. Because, for one Christians dont really worship or give much thanks or anything to Mary, where as Catholics, pray to her. Also, there are many saints that are prayed to, where, in Christianity, as far as I know, Christians only pray to God. To pray to someone else I believe is said to be a sin, not sure but thats what I think it says.

[Taco]

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

So...well? Is Catholicism merely a denomination of Christianity, or is it an entirely seperate religion?

I believe it's a seperate religion. Yes, it has some similarities to Christianity, but it's branched way too far off. It is as much Christianity as Mormonism and Jehova's Witnesses are Christianity (which, by the way, they're not). There are myriads of differences between Catholicism and Christianity -- the manipulations and misinterpretations of the Bible, along with additions to and subtractions from the Bible contradict Christianity. Non-Biblical beliefs concerning salvation, behavior, redemption, forgiveness, the afterlife, and many other subjects set it apart from any type of Christianity.

Could you give examples of the Non-Biblical beliefs, please? I'll see if I can counter-point them.

Catholics pray to the saints, to ask them to pray to God on their behalf, kind of like if you'd ask your friends to pray for you. We don't "worship" Mary or the saints.

Anyhoo... yeah, I think Catholics are Christians.

Wuv, Yer Mom

Non-biblical belief= Purgatory

[chocobo07]

Actually, before the Great Schism of the church during the High Middle Ages, there was no "Catholicism". It was ALL Christianity.

Until Martin Luther, a German monk, posted his 95 Theses on the door to the Wittenberg Cathedral, there was really no move to split. The 95 Theses was a work composed mainly against the use of indulgences, a very immoral practice by the church that essentially allowed you to pay money to the church and you'd receive a "pardon". Uh-huh. As you see, the Church at this time was at its most corrupt.

Martin Luther had no intention of creating a separate religion, but the more he dwelled on it, he began to develop separate, but related ideas to the Church, core beliefs such as Sola Gracia (grace alone), Sola Scriptura (scripture alone), and others, and more who opposed the Church's corrupt ways joined him. This is around the time Henry VIII stood to defend the Church and earned the title "Defender of the Faith" (and we should know he later splits from the Church, makes the Church of England, of which he is in charge, and creates a sect of Christianity - Anglican).

At the same time in France, Calvinism was growing, and around a hundred years later, there would be Puritan.

The point is, people, that before Luther, everyone was Christian, or rather, Catholic. This was the Great Schism (schism, unlike heresy, is a disbelief in practice of the church, like indulgences).

Sorry that was so long. ^^; I took a church history class...

[fragdemon]

The point is, people, that before Luther, everyone was Christian, or rather, Catholic. This was the Great Schism (schism, unlike heresy, is a disbelief in practice of the church, like indulgences).

Sorry that was so long. ^^; I took a church history class...

You should've paid more attention in Church History. The Great Schism took place 400 years before Martin Luther was even born.

The Great Schism was a split between Catholicism and the Eastern Orthodox church because of some political ****ery between the Patriarch of a bunch of Eastern churches and the Pope of the western churches (the fact that these two seperate positions even existed is the result of the split in the Roman Empire). In 1054, both the Pope and the Patriarch mutually excommunicated each other. The result of this was the Great Schism, the entirety of a single united Christian faith being split into its eastern/western traditions.

What Martin Luther did in 1517 started something else, the Reformation.
____________

Anyways, to move on:

I believe that Catholicism and Christianity are different religions. Because, for one Christians dont really worship or give much thanks or anything to Mary, where as Catholics, pray to her. Also, there are many saints that are prayed to, where, in Christianity, as far as I know, Christians only pray to God. To pray to someone else I believe is said to be a sin, not sure but thats what I think it says.

The way Catholics pray to Mary/the Saints is not the same as the way they pray to God.

The way Catholics "pray" to Mary is closer to a way a good Christian woman will send prayers to her dead husband. Clearly her dead husband has absolutely no religious significance, but he has incredibly important personal significance.

Similarly, the Saints are important in a human way, not a religious way. The Saints are mainly important as examples to live by, and also in addition one can call on a saint to pray for them.

Think of what would happen in a good Presbyterian family where a family member gets into a car accident. Every single family member would pray for the individual. To take a further degree of distance, I'm sure many people pray for people in need much further away.

To Look at the Hail Mary:
Hail Mary, full of grace,
the Lord is with thee;
blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

The first 2 lines recognize Mary as someone who has received Grace, something which I think every denomination takes for granted.

The 3rd line says that she is blessed "amongst" women, which answer directly to Tom Strife's objection in the other thread:

2) We believe Mary should be worshipped AMOUNG women not ABOVE women.

The 4th line says Jesus is blessed, something I think all Christians can agree on.

The last 3 lines are a request for intercession, the request for her prayers. Yeah, every protestant denomination is against her/the Saints praying for another's sins, but it's not a particularly huge difference. Small enough that one could consider it simply a denominational difference.
____________

The idea of challenging the Catholic Church on its non-Biblical beliefs is a bit silly, especially considering that basically every school of Christianity maintains a belief in Creatio ex Nihilo, which isn't quite supported by the Bible.

But a lot of theological bigshots, St. Augustine, Calvin, etc. just believed that Creatio ex Nihilo just makes sense.

[Sasquatch]

Actually, Creatio ex Nihilo is supported by the Bible.

Originally Posted by Taco Del Fish

Could you give examples of the Non-Biblical beliefs, please? I'll see if I can counter-point them.

Divinity of Mary. Perpetual virginity of Mary. Immaculate Conception. Purgatory. Confession to (and forgiveness from) clergy. The Apocrypha. Sacraments. Hierarchy and divinity of clergy. Papal infallability. Annullments. Penance. Indulgences. Rosary. Prayer for the dead.

I'm sure there's more, but we'll get to them later.

it's christianity. the bible is not the only link to christianity or judaism.
as well, most christians these days don't follow the rules set forth themselves. change is inevitable.

[Sasquatch]

The Bible is the holy book of Christianity. If it's not Biblical, it's not Christian. The Bible is the only "link" to Christianity. You can't say "Nowhere in the Bible is such-and-such found, but it's still Christian."

They both believe in Jesus and for me thats enough to say they are both essentially Christian. All religions have divisions. islam has its 3 major divisions like Sunni etc. Chrisitanity has its 2 major divisions: Protestant and Catholism.

you seperate catholicism from christianity because it is shaped by man. christianity was created by man. nowhere does jesus propose a new type of religion. in fact most of his messages were (moral) common sense and being taught by many men all over the world.

"For the Son of man also came not to be served but to serve..." (Mark 10:45)

jesus did not come for the world to create a religion around him. the term christian was given to his disciples and followers by people who did not believe in him. to my understanding those followers later went through hard persecution in rome finally to become the central religion there. following these teachings the catholic church would be organised. you could say catholicism is the definition of christianity.

also, criticism of catholic traditions is pointless. many people have their own ways of getting closer to God.

you should also remember that the apostles wrote the much of the New Testament after the occurences at a time when Christianity was heavily influenced by regions they were spreading it to. and before then they themselves had division in their own 'church'. christianity has always been shaped by men.

[chocobo07]

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

So...well? Is Catholicism merely a denomination of Christianity, or is it an entirely seperate religion?

I believe it's a seperate religion. Yes, it has some similarities to Christianity, but it's branched way too far off. It is as much Christianity as Mormonism and Jehova's Witnesses are Christianity (which, by the way, they're not). There are myriads of differences between Catholicism and Christianity -- the manipulations and misinterpretations of the Bible, along with additions to and subtractions from the Bible contradict Christianity. Non-Biblical beliefs concerning salvation, behavior, redemption, forgiveness, the afterlife, and many other subjects set it apart from any type of Christianity.

Do you go to a public school where they don't teach it? What religion are you? O.o

[Sasquatch]

Originally Posted by Pie Man 360

All religions have divisions. islam has its 3 major divisions like Sunni etc.

You may be referring to the conflicts between the Sunnis and Shi'ites in Iraq, but the Kurds are Christian. If there's another "major division" or denomination of some type, I don't know much about it.

Originally Posted by chocobo07

Do you go to a public school where they don't teach it? What religion are you? O.o

I'm Christian. I was Catholic as a child, but got out of it prettymuch as soon as I started looking into my own faith and coming up with doubts in Catholicism. I did go to public schools, but they didn't teach anything about religion (other than a few small bits of history and such), so everything I've learned about Catholicism has been from the Catholic Church or from my own research.

Originally Posted by Saracen

you seperate catholicism from christianity because it is shaped by man. christianity was created by man. nowhere does jesus propose a new type of religion. in fact most of his messages were (moral) common sense and being taught by many men all over the world.

Actually, Jesus did say, many times, that the only way to Heaven was faith in Him. Not just that, but the New Testament many times rebukes ancient Jewish traditions. I've heard people say that Jesus didn't try to start any new religion, and it's simply not true. Tell you what, you tell anybody else of any monotheistic religion that their Messiah has come, and see if they think you're just "teaching".

the term christian was given to his disciples and followers by people who did not believe in him.

The term "Christian" was given by Christians themselves, meaning those who follow Christ. "Christ" means "Messiah".

also, criticism of catholic traditions is pointless. many people have their own ways of getting closer to God.

"Their own ways of getting closer to God", I have no problem with. But when "their own ways" include things that are contradictory to God's teachings -- as do many of Catholic "ways" -- that's when it starts conflicting with Christianity.

you should also remember that the apostles wrote the much of the New Testament after the occurences at a time when Christianity was heavily influenced by regions they were spreading it to.

Umm... No. Most of the New Testament was written immediately following the life of Jesus. If the New Testament was written to be spread or not persecuted, it wouldn't have been written at all.

[hellbred]

Just thought I'd mention that Sasquatch is currently dominating in backing up his points and opinions, which I'm in agreeance with.