Catholicism = Christianity?

[Dead & Grateful]

You're more ignorant than my statement about non-denominational churches if you really believe that. So is your church. You can't deny something just because you don't agree with it. You can't say "Oh, Catholics are more traditional than us, and Lutherans don't practice some of the same customs as us, so we're just gonna say they aren't part of the Christian religion."

Doesn't work.

[TomStrife]

You clearly misunderstood what I was trying to point out. Traditions caused the belief of Christians and Catholics too slowly seperate if I believe correctly.

What I'm trying to say is, Catholics believe good works and believing Jesus died on the cross get you to Heaven.

Christians believe good works are completely unnesscary seeing how if this was true everyone would be burning in Hell.

There are mnay differences in beliefs but all in all, we are similar compared to other religions.

[James D.]

Originally Posted by TomStrife

The church I go to is Calvary Chapel, a VERY prosperous chain of churches.

The Catholic Church is infinitely more prosperous than an American non-denominational Church.

In fact. the 1.2 Billion Catholics have more right to say who is Christian than the estimated .9 Billion combination of Protestant and Orthodox Christians. In an argument of numbers, the Catholics win.

The BERT theory cites Tradition as being one of the central philosophies of Catholicism. The B is for Bible as the obly source of knowledge, which is Baptist. The E is for Experience, with God in particular, which includes Presbyterians. The R is for Reason, which includes the Methodists. Combining all of these beliefs is Jesus Christ. Each group can claim the other is not Christian based on this, but they all would be wrong.

And TomStrife, earlier you stated that the Catholics praised Mary above women. There is a common misconception that the Catholics pray to Mary, which is false. The Catholics ask Mary to get their prayers across to Jesus, because they feel Jesus is more likely to fulfill requests that come from his mother. This may be wrong in your eyes, and in some sections of the Bible, but no sect follows the Bible exactly.

[TomStrife]

Originally Posted by James

And TomStrife, earlier you stated that the Catholics praised Mary above women. There is a common misconception that the Catholics pray to Mary, which is false. The Catholics ask Mary to get their prayers across to Jesus, because they feel Jesus is more likely to fulfill requests that come from his mother. This may be wrong in your eyes, and in some sections of the Bible, but no sect follows the Bible exactly.

Exactly, and that's praising her above women. You don't agree Mary recieves more praise than women?

My point remains. It's a fact you don't need Mary to tell Jesus anything.
Besides, Mary was the physical Mother of Christ, not Spiritual.

[Dead & Grateful]

James isn't saying she receives praise, James is saying she receives requests. Notice how I'm not capitalizing "she"?

And how is it a fact that you don't need Mary to communicate to Jesus? How is anything dealing with religion factual? It's not a fact that Jesus is even listening, if you want to look at it that way.

[Itachi Uchiha]

catholicism is the same as christianity. it is just a branch of it like there are protestants and methodists. there all the same they just do slightly different things to worship god and stuff. it doesn't mean that there all different religions

[Sasquatch]

Originally Posted by James

And TomStrife, earlier you stated that the Catholics praised Mary above women. There is a common misconception that the Catholics pray to Mary, which is false. The Catholics ask Mary to get their prayers across to Jesus, because they feel Jesus is more likely to fulfill requests that come from his mother. This may be wrong in your eyes, and in some sections of the Bible, but no sect follows the Bible exactly.

Catholicism believes that Mary is a mediator between man and God. Which is completely false -- the only mediator between man and God is Jesus, and there is no need of a mediator between man and Jesus. By the way, you can't say "Well, Catholicism has completely abandoned some parts of the Bible, but that's okay because nobody really follows the Bible anyway." What parts of the Bible to Baptists not follow? Methodists?

Look at the "Hail Mary" prayer. "Hail Mary" -- why honor Mary? She has no more religious importance than you or I. How is she full of grace? How is the Lord with her more than He is with anybody else? Why is she blessed amongst women? How is she "holy"? How is she the "mother of God"? (Remember, as TomStrife pointed out, Mary was the physical mother of Jesus, having nothing to do with Him being the Messiah -- I don't even think they shared the same genes, but I don't know.) And why should Mary pray for us? (Mary's dead. She has been for nearly 2,000 years. She can't pray for us. She has no more importance than my dead grandfather. How many Catholics pray to other dead people?)

[Jof]

Mary is the Immaculate Conception, its a common mistake that Jesus is the immaculate conception but this is wrong, he is the virgin birth.

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

why honor Mary? She has no more religious importance than you or I. How is she full of grace?

She was the first that was born without original sin, and, well call me an optimist but i would think that if you were the first person born totally without sin then you are pretty special, and as such you have religious importance.

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

Why is she blessed amongst women?

She did give birth to Jesus, the messiah, king of men and all that didnt she, or was that a figment of my imagination?

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

How is she "holy"?

Yet again-Immaculate conception, Mother of God, the lines of David.

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

How is the Lord with her more than He is with anybody else?

...*sigh* Mother of God, immaculate conception etc etc.

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

How is she the "mother of God"? (Remember, as TomStrife pointed out, Mary was the physical mother of Jesus, having nothing to do with Him being the Messiah

She was of the lines of David i think, or at least she married into them. This is the lines of Kings, She was blessed by the immaculate conception and as such the closest being on earth that could be the spiritual Mother of God. She was the only person on Earth with no sin...

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

She can't pray for us.

Isnt she accorded the same, if not more respect than saints are yet we believe they can pray for us.

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

She can't pray for us. She has no more importance than my dead grandfather. How many Catholics pray to other dead people?)

Im not even going into the communion of Saints, research it if you want the answer to that...

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

Catholicism believes that Mary is a mediator between man and God. Which is completely false -- the only mediator between man and God is Jesus,

You do realise, along with just about every comment you mad ethat is void, perhaps the most so...

God
/ \
jesus-Holy Spirit

The above somewhat rudimentry diagram shows the trinity, this is also called 3 and 1. The belief that all are the same, Jesus isnt a mediator between man and God he IS God. Jesus=God Incarnate(in human form)

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

What parts of the Bible to Baptists not follow? Methodists?

I think its really the way that its interpretted.

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

Catholicism believes that Mary is a mediator between man and God. Which is completely false

Im not sure whether or not your...
a)Slandering the entire Catholic Church
or
b)replying to some earlier comment.

Either way The Catholic Church believes this is true. The reason for this is (if my memory serves me right)
At some party They ran out of wine. This would of been a sham for obvious reasons. They asked Jesus (i think) and he said no, so they then asked Mary to intercede on their behalf, she did and he agreed, asking for casks of water so he could change them to wine.

Well the whole shabang about this is that Mary interceded and a miracle was performed. The belief is that a miracle that would not be performed under normal circumstances can be performed at the behest of Mary. To keep on topic so that Chaz doesnt delete this, this is one of the major differences between Catholocism and other denominations of Christianity.

[jenova33]

There are many different denominations of christianity. Some are catholic, pentecostal, orthadox, baptist and more. Some even consider mormonism and jehova's witnesses as denominations of christianity, when they're technically not. What some people just call christianity, is usually the denomination of the pentecostal christian. Theres always a twist to each little religion. Catholics don't believe in what happened after a certain point in the life of Christ. Baptists don't believe in the gift of speaking in tongues. It's all different, but anyway... yes, catholicism is only a denomination, not a completely seperate religion.

[Kyo-san]

Again with the religious fighting? Why can't you people get an effin life? Have you nothing better to talk about than what you think will happen after we die? No one knows so this useless banter is getting you NOWHERE!!!!

[Sasquatch]

First off, bullship, if you don't have anything intellectual to say, why say anything? Especially in Intellectual Discussion.

Originally Posted by Jof

Mary is the Immaculate Conception, its a common mistake that Jesus is the immaculate conception but this is wrong, he is the virgin birth.

The Immaculate Conception is another Catholic belief, not Biblical (Christian) belief -- right along with the Assumption.

She was the first that was born without original sin, and, well call me an optimist but i would think that if you were the first person born totally without sin then you are pretty special, and as such you have religious importance.

Would you please show me the Bible verses that say Mary was sinless? After you try that, I can get you the verses that say that Jesus was the only sinless human.

She did give birth to Jesus, the messiah, king of men and all that didnt she, or was that a figment of my imagination?

Yes, she did. And while she was carrying Jesus, that made her something special. After His birth, she was just another mother.

Yet again-Immaculate conception, Mother of God, the lines of David.

Yet again. Woman. Human. Sin. Just like any other woman.

Isnt she accorded the same, if not more respect than saints are yet we believe they can pray for us.

Yes, she's given more respect and honor than the saints. With no Biblical reason for faith in her or the saints.

God
/ \
jesus-Holy Spirit

The above somewhat rudimentry diagram shows the trinity, this is also called 3 and 1. The belief that all are the same, Jesus isnt a mediator between man and God he IS God. Jesus=God Incarnate(in human form)

Three in one. The Trinity -- God in three parts. And Jesus, though only one of the parts, is the only mediator between man and God. Meaning, to get to the Big Guy, we've got to go through Jesus. "No man shall come to the Father except through Me" and such. The Holy Spirit was left with man when Jesus went back into Heaven as a guide -- what most people think of as their "conscience". So it would actually be ...

God
/ | \
God - Jesus - Holy Spirit

I think its really the way that its interpretted.

That's right. You're exactly right. Denominations have different interpretations of the Bible -- they may not believe the exact same things or worship the exact same way, but they're pertty similar. Another religion, however, will take things out and put things in that they want. There is no way to "interpret" the Bible to fit some Catholic beliefs -- that is solely manipulation and addition.

a)Slandering the entire Catholic Church...

First, slander would have to be incorrect. But the Catholic Church actually believes that. Second ... that statement wasn't an attempt to insult or offend Catholicism, I was only pointing out what it (wrongly) holds sacred.

Either way The Catholic Church believes this is true. The reason for this is (if my memory serves me right)
At some party They ran out of wine. This would of been a sham for obvious reasons. They asked Jesus (i think) and he said no, so they then asked Mary to intercede on their behalf, she did and he agreed, asking for casks of water so he could change them to wine.

Well the whole shabang about this is that Mary interceded and a miracle was performed. The belief is that a miracle that would not be performed under normal circumstances can be performed at the behest of Mary. To keep on topic so that Chaz doesnt delete this, this is one of the major differences between Catholocism and other denominations of Christianity.

Actually, I'm pretty sure Mary asked Jesus, without the guests asking Jesus about it. That story is in John 2. Still, praying through Mary because of one passage when multiple other passages in the Bible tell you to specifically pray only through Jesus just ain't right.

Originally Posted by jenova33

Theres always a twist to each little religion. Catholics don't believe in what happened after a certain point in the life of Christ. Baptists don't believe in the gift of speaking in tongues. It's all different, but anyway...

I haven't heard much about that Catholic belief, but your idea on the Baptist belief is incorrect. It's not that they don't believe in it, it's just that they believe it's rare ... as opposed to another denomination whose church supported a young lady who claimed that God had had her friend speak in tongues to her so that only she could understand it, telling her to get an abortion.

[Jof]

This is about Catholocism isnt it? So ergo all my stuff was relevant. This is a religious thread isnt it? Therefore it belongs in the intellectual deiscussion as religion is classed as an intellectual topic.

Also the Dogmas of the CATHOLIC church, remember, i know your memory isnt excelent but we are debating the differences between CATHOLOCISM and Christianity.

How, if you give birth to the messiah do you become just another mother...Thats your opinion not the opinion of the Catholic church.

Aslo you have no right to say anything the Catholic Church says or does is wrong, you can express your belief that they are but you can't just say 'wrong'.

There are three ways to interpret the Bible,

Fundamentalist-Litterally(sp?)
Conservative-needs domeone to interpret it for us
Liberal-All is just a book of morals, see your own, for wat of a better word, ideas.

yeah, The guests didnt ask hesus, but then again it has been 2/3 years since we covered that bit in school. I googled it and Mary asks him to which he says "why do you involve me, my time has not come yet" so she just tells the servants to do what he says.

Anyway, its half one and im going to bed...again...


EDIT:

Again with the religious fighting? Why can't you people get an effin life? Have you nothing better to talk about than what you think will happen after we die? No one knows so this useless banter is getting you NOWHERE!!!!

Double You tee Eff...I am sorry that you came onto this thread so that you could insult us...And you must of read part of this thread... Why do you even bother coming onto the intellectual discussion. thats like saying, So what the polar icecaps might melt, theyre not gonna do it in your lifetime so why talk about it...

Maybe we just wish to bounce ideas of one another or gain a greater understanding. Commisserations on your...not sure what it is...futileness?