Catholicism = Christianity?

[Pete]

Um, for the umpteenth time, if a religion believes in Jesus Christ to be the savior, then it is Christianity. It doesn't matter whether or not the Romans or Jews had Jesus crucified, what matters is that we're all in a common belief that Jesus existed and that he was crucified.

As for the mormons, they aren't Christians. They're the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or some other mouthful. Ask syd about them. However, they believe in Brigam Young and Joseph Smith to be the founders and all that bs. I believe Smith founded the religion, claiming to have found some golden tablets written by Mormon, a rather shady fellow that we dont know much about. Without attacking anyone's beliefs, it's the equivalent of me seeing Jesus's image on a waffle and worshipping Eggo, the prophet... and having some very syruppy wives.

[Sasquatch]

Originally Posted by Pete

Um, for the umpteenth time, if a religion believes in Jesus Christ to be the savior, then it is Christianity. It doesn't matter whether or not the Romans or Jews had Jesus crucified, what matters is that we're all in a common belief that Jesus existed and that he was crucified.

It wouldn't take much to believe that Jesus existed and was crucified, that's historical fact, in Jewish and Roman record. You could say that even Satan knows that -- it's what we do with that knowledge (or faith, depending on your point of view) that makes us Christians. If we acknowledge that, but refuse to follow the Holy Book of the religion -- not just in the "how" of our beliefs, but in the "what" -- we aren't really a part of the religion.

Christianity states that faith, and faith alone, saves us, though forgiveness through Jesus. Not forgiveness through a priest, not faith and good deeds.

[maxpower]

Originally Posted by Pete

Um, for the umpteenth time, if a religion believes in Jesus Christ to be the savior, then it is Christianity. It doesn't matter whether or not the Romans or Jews had Jesus crucified, what matters is that we're all in a common belief that Jesus existed and that he was crucified.

As for the mormons, they aren't Christians. They're the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or some other mouthful. Ask syd about them. However, they believe in Brigam Young and Joseph Smith to be the founders and all that bs. I believe Smith founded the religion, claiming to have found some golden tablets written by Mormon, a rather shady fellow that we dont know much about. Without attacking anyone's beliefs, it's the equivalent of me seeing Jesus's image on a waffle and worshipping Eggo, the prophet... and having some very syruppy wives.

Does this last post make any sense? All you have to do is believe that Jesus Christ is your savior and you are Christian, but The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or the "Mormons" are not Christian? Well I am a Mormon and I do believe that Jesus Christ is my Savior! I don't worship Joseph Smith or have more than one wife and I do believe in the Bible, which I have read multiple times. I celebrate Christmas and Easter, along with every other Holiday. I even don't have horns or fly. Still I guess that in order to be accepted in the Christian community you have to do more than believe that Jesus Christ is your savior and that the Bible is Holy writ. Perhaps I need to start shunning others that don't believe exactly how I do to be accepted, is that more Christ like?

Also if you want to learn about "Mormons" you don't have to ask syd, you can just ask the 2% of the American population that is LDS. We are more common than both the Musslims and Jewish population in America, according to the CIA. http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications...k/geos/us.html

[Sean]

Christianity is simply any religion that follows the Hebrew bible (Old testament) and holds belief in Christ.

Most Christian religions also follow the Nicene Creed, including Protestants.

* The Trinity;
* Jesus is both God and man;
* Salvation is available through the person, life and death of Jesus Christ;
* The virgin birth, crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, and Second Coming of Jesus;
* One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
* The forgiveness of sins through baptism;
* The resurrection of the dead, in which all people who have ever lived will rise from the dead at the end of time, to be judged by Christ.

I was born and raised Christian, baptized, communion, ect. I went through it all up to confirmation, before I quit (When I was 13) Catholics follow all of this, thus, making them Christian.

Roman Catholocism, wether you think it is or isn't, is a denomination of Christianity.


Oh, and Jehova's Witnesses and Mormons ARE Christian, they themselves just choose to distance themselves from it. Hell, even Quakers are Christian.

[Sasquatch]

Originally Posted by Sean

* The Trinity;
* Jesus is both God and man;
* Salvation is available through the person, life and death of Jesus Christ;
* The virgin birth, crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, and Second Coming of Jesus;
* One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
* The forgiveness of sins through baptism;
* The resurrection of the dead, in which all people who have ever lived will rise from the dead at the end of time, to be judged by Christ.

Actually, Baptism doesn't grant forgiveness of sins, it's a method of public announcement of your acceptance of Christ. And Catholics don't believe that faith in Jesus is the one and only way to Heaven and that nothing else matters, like the Bible states. That is the issue here.

And Christianity is based more off the New Testament than the Old Testament. We just hold proper respect for the OT in regards to history, background, and laws.

[Alizée Jacotey]

People seem to forget that for a period of time, Catholicism was the only form of Christianity. Not until the Eastern Orthodox Church broke off was there a Christian faith that did not adhere to the Pope.

Many different types of Christianity believe different things. Jehovahs Witnesses do not believe in the divinity of Christ. They believe he simply was a teacher. They also do not believe in a Hell. Catholics dedicate more of their artistic works to the Virgin Mary. Mormons believe that Joseph Smith is a prophet. But guess what? They are all Christian.

It is ignorance to other religions that this type of question comes up. All religions have sects. In Iraq, the different Muslim sects are fighting over control of the country. In earlier times, differing Muslim sects warred over who their ruler would be. The Jewish religion of about 18 million people has so many different groups its unbelievable.

[Sasquatch]

For a period of time, Catholicism was the only church of Christianity.

If they don't believe in the divinity of Jesus, they're not Christian. That's pretty simple. Christian means a belief in the divinity of Jesus (the Christ). That is the most basic point of faith in Christianity, that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah.

While Catholics don't go that far, they do deny some of the basic points of faith in the Bible.

If I call myself a Republican but I'm pro-abortion, pro-taxes, anti-military, anti-gun, pro-special rights, pro-immigration, etc. etc. etc., I am not a Republican, no matter how strongly or how often I say I am.

Yes, all religions have sects and all religions have denominations -- well, I'd imagine they would, but I don't know all religions. But if any sect or denomination refuses to accept the basic principles of the religion, especially the most basic principle, they are no longer a denomination of said religion, but a different religion entirely. Similar, yes, but not a part of.

[Alizée Jacotey]

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

For a period of time, Catholicism was the only church of Christianity.

If they don't believe in the divinity of Jesus, they're not Christian. That's pretty simple. Christian means a belief in the divinity of Jesus (the Christ). That is the most basic point of faith in Christianity, that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah.

While Catholics don't go that far, they do deny some of the basic points of faith in the Bible.

If I call myself a Republican but I'm pro-abortion, pro-taxes, anti-military, anti-gun, pro-special rights, pro-immigration, etc. etc. etc., I am not a Republican, no matter how strongly or how often I say I am.

Yes, all religions have sects and all religions have denominations -- well, I'd religion, but a different religion entirely. Similar, yes, but not a part of.

Guess what. There are millions of Mormons. Millions of Jehovah's Witnesses. Their opinion on what they are > yours.

The divinity of Christ wasnt even agreed upon until one of the first Councils of Nicaea, when the bishops got together and decicded which books to include in the Bible.

Your sweeping generalization of the Republican Party is proof that there is danger in letting any adult vote. Republicans, as well as Democrats, differ from so many things within their party. The more common threads in the Republican party are less government intrusion in business, while the Democrats are for less government intrusion in personal lives. To say that each party is clear cut on a stance such as abortion is insulting. There are pro choice Republicans and pro life Democrats, its a simple fact.

More liberal Republicans have been hush on the immigration issue, while the conservative ones have been on the horn about it.

Joseph Lieberman, John Kerry, and Dennis Kucinich are in the Democratic Party. To say that these three people all have to have the EXACT same stance on such controversial issues as abortion and taxation is to show that you dont know what you are talking about.

[Sasquatch]

Originally Posted by James

Guess what. There are millions of Mormons. Millions of Jehovah's Witnesses. Their opinion on what they are > yours.

There is one Bible. And what the Bible says > what you say or what they say, or even what I say -- unless I say it because it's in the Bible, which is why I'm saying what I'm saying now.

Your sweeping generalization of the Republican Party is proof that there is danger in letting any adult vote. Republicans, as well as Democrats, differ from so many things within their party. The more common threads in the Republican party are less government intrusion in business, while the Democrats are for less government intrusion in personal lives. To say that each party is clear cut on a stance such as abortion is insulting. There are pro choice Republicans and pro life Democrats, its a simple fact.

More liberal Republicans have been hush on the immigration issue, while the conservative ones have been on the horn about it.

Joseph Lieberman, John Kerry, and Dennis Kucinich are in the Democratic Party. To say that these three people all have to have the EXACT same stance on such controversial issues as abortion and taxation is to show that you dont know what you are talking about.

I never said that. But if one of those people had stances opposing the typical stance of their party on every issue, they wouldn't be following that party. A better example would be to use a voter, because politicians are actually documented members of a certain party. If somebody claims to be Democrat, but disagrees with every key Democratic stance, they're not a Democrat. Or, if you wish, replace "Democrat" with "liberal" or "Republican" with "conservative", if you want to generalize a little.

In comparison, if a church claims to be Christian, but disagrees with the Bible on topics of forgiveness, salvation, divinity, extortion, sexuality, and plenty more, that church is not Christian.

If a church claims to be Christian, but disagrees with the most basic point of faith in Christianity, they are not Christian. That's like saying "I'm Jewish, but I don't believe in God."

Let me use a different analogy. I'm a Chicago Cubs fan. If I started a baseball team in, say, Utah, got new players, got new pitchers, got new managers, got new coaches, got a new ballpark, and got new announcers, but wore Chicago Cubs uniforms and called themselves the Chicago Cubs, would my team be the Chicago Cubs? No. Catholicism is not the Chicago Cubs. It's not a AAA or AA or A team. It's not a practice squad. It's an entirely different team calling themselves the Chicago Cubs.

You have no idea of the real danger of letting any adult vote. Honestly, no idea.

[Alizée Jacotey]

You cant pretend I said something in order to be right.

The divinity of Christ is not the fundamental idea of Christianity. The fundamental idea of Christianity is living by what he preached. His divinity is meant to be proof that he knew what he was talking about.

And funny that you mention Jewish people that dont believe in God. There are small groups of people from the Hebrew heritage who agree with Jewish philosophies and not with the idea of a God. One of the ex-mods here, fragdemon, believed in the teachings of Christ but not his divinity.

As to your analogy, you are right. But you are right in a way that has nothing to do with me. With your argument, Protestants wouldnt be real Christians, because the Catholics were there long before them and are responsible for holding the religion together for about a thousand years.

Now, you made it sound like I believed a sect could be part of something without believing in any of its general ideas. All Christian churches believe in the teachings of Christ. All Republicans believe in the basic ideas, which is less government intrusion. If the Protestants and the Catholics agreed on nothing, then you would have a point. But the fact they both agree on his teachings, I have a point.

[Sasquatch]

Originally Posted by James

The divinity of Christ is not the fundamental idea of Christianity. The fundamental idea of Christianity is living by what he preached. His divinity is meant to be proof that he knew what he was talking about.

Uhh, no. Do you know what "Christ" means? It doesn't mean "teacher", it means "Messiah". The very basis of Christianity is that Jesus was the Son of God, sent to grant us forgiveness for our sins and entrance into Heaven.

And funny that you mention Jewish people that dont believe in God. There are small groups of people from the Hebrew heritage who agree with Jewish philosophies and not with the idea of a God. One of the ex-mods here, fragdemon, believed in the teachings of Christ but not his divinity.

Then he wasn't a Christian. And the Hebrews that don't believe in God are now Jewish. I'm talking about religion, not heritage.

As to your analogy, you are right. But you are right in a way that has nothing to do with me. With your argument, Protestants wouldnt be real Christians, because the Catholics were there long before them and are responsible for holding the religion together for about a thousand years.

Again. No. It doesn't matter who "was there" first, it doesn't matter what they did, it matters what they believe. If the Chicago Cubs became a cricket team, that wouldn't mean that cricket and baseball are the same sport, and it wouldn't mean that cricket is now baseball because the Milwaukee Brewers play their own way and haven't been around for as long as the Cubs. It would mean that the Cubs abandoned the sport they helped spread the popularity of long ago.

Now, you made it sound like I believed a sect could be part of something without believing in any of its general ideas. All Christian churches believe in the teachings of Christ. All Republicans believe in the basic ideas, which is less government intrusion. If the Protestants and the Catholics agreed on nothing, then you would have a point. But the fact they both agree on his teachings, I have a point.

They agree on some of His teachings. But not His teachings on forvigeness and salvation, the two most important aspects of the Christian faith.

[Alizée Jacotey]

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

Uhh, no. Do you know what "Christ" means? It doesn't mean "teacher", it means "Messiah". The very basis of Christianity is that Jesus was the Son of God, sent to grant us forgiveness for our sins and entrance into Heaven.

If I change the word used from Christ to Jesus, this point is obsolete. My fault on not clarifying I meant the person, not the last name with meaning.

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

It doesn't matter who "was there" first, it doesn't matter what they did, it matters what they believe. If the Chicago Cubs became a cricket team, that wouldn't mean that cricket and baseball are the same sport, and it wouldn't mean that cricket is now baseball because the Milwaukee Brewers play their own way and haven't been around for as long as the Cubs. It would mean that the Cubs abandoned the sport they helped spread the popularity of long ago.

But what did the Catholic Church become? It is still corrupt and hypocritical, like it was two thousand years ago. While it could be argued that the Catholics are not true Christians based on their worshipping of idols and the grandeur of their church, there is no evidence that they have broken off from their brand of Christianity. If anyone, the Eastern Orthodox and Protestant religions abandoned Christianity, since they broke off from the institution.

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

They agree on some of His teachings. But not His teachings on forvigeness and salvation, the two most important aspects of the Christian faith.

Which Christian sect does not believe in forgiveness and salvation? The Jehovahs Witnesses are particularly fond of that. Their whole work is centered around that the apocalypse is probably tomorrow, and that everyone must be saved or risk being cast into eternal damnation.