Catholicism = Christianity?

[TomStrife]

Ahem...

Originally Posted by Carm.org

Are Roman Catholics Christian?
They are if they have trusted in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of their sins. However, if they believe that the are saved by God's grace and their works, then they are not saved -- even if they believe their works are done by God's grace -- since they then deny the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice.
Being a Christian does not mean being a member of the Roman Catholic Church. It means being a member of the body of Christ which is accomplished by faith and trust in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of your sins. It means that you do not add your works to His work. Sincerity doesn't forgive sins. Membership in a church doesn't forgive sins. Doing works of penance doesn't forgive sins. Praying to Mary doesn't forgive sins. Forgiveness is received in the faithful trust and acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. You must trust Jesus, God in flesh, for the forgiveness of sins, not a man made ritual and certainly not the catholic saints. Even though Roman Catholic Church affirms the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and His physical resurrection, it greatly errs in its doctrine of salvation by adding works to salvation.
The official Roman Catholic doctrine of salvation is that the grace of God is infused into a baby at baptism -- making him/her justified before God.1 This justification can be lost through sin and must be regained by repeated participation in the many sacraments found in the Roman Catholic Church. These sacraments increase the measure of grace in the person by which he or she is enabled to do good works which are in turn rewarded with the joy of heaven:

"We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere 'to the end' and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ," (Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 1821).

"Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification," (CCC, par. 2010).

No one can say whether a Roman Catholic is truly a Christian or not since we cannot know people's hearts. But, if anyone, Catholic included, openly denies essential doctrines2 then he is not saved, and this is the problem. It appears that the Roman Catholic church is denying the essential doctrine of justification by faith. It says...

"If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema." (Canon 9, Council of Trent).
"If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema." (Canon 14, Council of Trent).
For more on this, please see Council of Trent. Canons on Justification.

Notice that justification by faith alone is denied and heaven is the reward for doing good works. This is the problem. The RCC does not teach the biblical doctrine of justification by faith. It teaches justification by faith and works. If you want to see more on this, go to The Roman Catholic view on justification.

So, what is the CARM position on Roman Catholics?


CARM's position is simple. If a Roman Catholic believes in the official Roman Catholic teaching on salvation, then he is not a Christian since the official RCC position is contrary to scripture. Therefore, as a whole, Roman Catholics need to be evangelized. They need to hear the true Gospel. They need to hear that they are not made right before God by being in a church, or by being baptized, but by receiving Christ (John 1:12), believing that Jesus has risen from the dead (Rom. 10:9), and that justification is by faith (Rom. 5:1) and not by our deeds (Rom. 4:5). It is only true faith that results in true works (James 2), not the other way around. Roman Catholics, like anyone else, need to trust in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of their sins and not the Catholic sacraments, not the words of the priest, not the pope, not Mary, not the saints, not penance, not indulgences, not the rosary, etc. Jesus alone is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6).
Finally, I believe that there are truly regenerate Christians in the Roman Catholic church. But, they are truly Christians in spite of official RCC theology and in spite of the ritualistic offerings of this ancient church which has had too many hands meddling in it through the centuries, gradually moving it away from orthodoxy and into apostasy. Yes apostasy. The Roman Catholic Church is no longer representing true Christianity.
Jesus alone saves. Jesus alone is Lord. Only Jesus' sacrifice can cleanse us. Only by faith are we made right before God. Justification is by faith, not by anything we do.

____________
1 "Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy," (Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 2020).
2. In short, the essentials are the deity of Christ, His physical resurrection, and justification by grace through faith. Related to these are the Trinity, the virgin birth, and, of course, the gospel itself. For more information on essentials, please see the Doctrine Grid.

And here are the doctrines of Christianity:

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/essentials.htm

There are Catholics who are Christians but the way they believe they will get ot Heaven is completely different thus I believe Christianity is a completely different religion.

[Kinney]

I think they are pretty much the same but not completely. I dont read the bible and I dont pray too much. And yeah they both are about Jesus so they are pretty much the same for that. Maybe it is the same. I dont really get it anyway. My sister told me that she was reading in the bible that the 06/06/06 it was said in the Bible that something bad was going to happen. I want to start reading the Bible now to see about that, Im freaked out indeed, since my sister seems to know all about the writings in the Biblie might as well that I ask her.

In another words, for me they are pretty much the same.

[TomStrife]

The Bible does not say anything bad is going to happen. I, myself, assume otherwise, BUT my assumptions are not gold. I think 6-6-06 maybe something along the birth of the Anti-Christ or maybe even the beginning of his reign.

I could be wrong, however.

All in all, Christianity`s guidelines contradict to the Catholics.
There are saved people who are Catholic BUT just because you are Catholic that doesn`t automatically mean you are Christian. The Catholics are indeed taught they are part of our religion but that isn`t neccessarily true.

I'm Catholic (Roman Catholic, to be precise) and I do believe that Catholicism has pulled away from Christianity. Other Christian religions are somewhat alike in the ways they practice and the things they believe. Catholic services are way too different and the whole...idea (for want of a better word) is just so different.

[Lethal Seraphim]

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

It is as much Christianity as Mormonism and Jehova's Witnesses are Christianity (which, by the way, they're not).

If you're going to refer to a faith, at least use the correct name. There is no such thing as Mormonism. The church you are referring to(of which I am a part of) is the Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder Day Saints. People call us Mormons because we have a Book of Mormon(and because they are ignorant), which is a seperate book we believe to hold truth. It is a seperate entity from the Bible and does not contradict the Bible. If anything it serves to help "prove" the Bible's trueness.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a Christian church by definition. You're a Christian if you believe in Christ(and his providing of our salvation) last time I checked, and we certainly do. We don't pray to saints or Joseph Smith, we don't worship anyone other than God, the same God most other Christian faiths refer to. We also interpret the Bible to be the word of God, so long as it is translated correctly. Possibly the only thing that seperates us from your run of the mill Christian faith is the aforementioned Book of Mormon.

I honestly cannot fathom how you sat there and said my church was not a Christian one. I'm even more bewildered that you could say that when you obviously do not even know enough about my faith to even know the correct name.

You sir, do not know what you are talking about. I would really appreciate it if you'd actually make an attempt to know what you are talking about. Have you ever attended my church? Have you read anything about it? Hell, you probably still think that all "Mormons" are polygamists, right? Wow. Get educated about my faith before you even begin to talk about it. You're lack of information has offended me greatly. I do feel sorry that you've been so misinformed.

And if nothing else, I find it funny how a faith is deemed not Christian because it doesn't match up to your definition. Of all people, wouldn't that be Christ's call? You can speculate all you want, but you don't really know. Just because you say somethings Christian or not, doesn't mean it is, it just means you don't think it is. Religion is certainly not an objective thing. You may think you know, but you just have an idea. That goes for about everything regarding religion anyway.

That's all I have to say. You can refute this argument I've made if you like, but I'm not going to say much more about it.

As for the initial Catholicism question, yeah, I think they're a Christian faith because they, you know, BELIEVE IN CHRIST. I dunno what other qualifiers you have to have there. Apparently there are quite a few.

EDIT:

Please forgive me. It occurs to me now that some if not all of that is a bit over the top and may be perceived as unprofessional. Some things were said that drew out a strong emotional response from me. A strong emotional response hardly has a place in an intellectual discussion forum. My apologies.

[TomStrife]

There are numerous contradictions in the book of Mormon that differ from the Holy bBble.

Is it Mourmonism, oh, excuse me, The Church of the Ladder Day Saints, that believe you will inherit your own planet or Scientology? I can`t seem to remember. Either way, that`s a topic of it`s own, BUT that contradicts the Bible either way.

But my opinion still stands, I know a man that was once part of your religion who is now a Christian is said he couldn`t believe what he had put his faith in prior and was amazed at the numerous changes Mourmons have made to their Book. How can you have faith in a relgion that was frequently changed their works?

[Lethal Seraphim]

Originally Posted by TomStrife

There are numerous contradictions in the book of Mormon that differ from the Holy bBble.

Is it Mourmonism, oh, excuse me, The Church of the Ladder Day Saints, that believe you will inherit your own planet or Scientology? I can`t seem to remember. Either way, that`s a topic of it`s own, BUT that contradicts the Bible either way.

But my opinion still stands, I know a man that was once part of your religion who is now a Christian is said he couldn`t believe what he had put his faith in prior and was amazed at the numerous changes Mourmons have made to their Book. How can you have faith in a relgion that was frequently changed their works?

First, have you read the Book of Mormon? I trust you have if you're going to tell me about the contradictions in it. Second, thank you for "attempting" to address the religion with it's full and proper name(The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I don't disrespect your faith or call it by the wrong name, I'd only ask the same in return), although you could have meant it sarcastically(I'm going to assume you didn't).

We don't believe in Scientology. As far as the planet thing goes, we believe that by living a truly Christ-like existence, one can inherit everything God has(not an unusual belief unique to my faith). From this belief we infer that it will also be possible for us to create our own sort of world or universe or whatever due to us being so like God and having been rewarded all that he gives us. We refer to it as exaltation, becoming like God. The purest state and highest glory attainable in the next life.

To my knowledge the Book of Mormon we use has never been changed since Joseph Smith translated it. However, our prophet does give us revelation as to various aspects of life(like getting tattooos or piercings, pornography addiction, etc.). These do change with the times and as the church sees the need to inform its members of its stance on an issue.

The Book of Mormon is simply an account of the people inhabiting the American continent during and around the times of Christ, and their experiences with God and the Savior.

I don't see how that contradicts the Bible.

But truthfully, I don't really care.

I'm not super-devout in my faith. I haven't read the Bible from cover to cover, nor have I read my Book of Mormon from cover to cover. I have an independent attitude towards religion and am generally shying away from organized religion altogether. I believe that people(not unlike yourself) congregate with one another for the purpose of taking comfort in knowing other people have the same beliefs as they do.

If I am truly strong in my faith, I do not need to share my beliefs with anyone in order for me to have and believe them. My personal salvation is not dependent upon whether or not other people think the same way I do.

And I really don't care even if my religion did contradict the Bible or was not Christianic in your opinion. Why? Because it is your opinion. I believe what I believe, and I don't really care what you believe. If you thought the same as me, I still wouldn't give much of a crap. Good for you, I say.

I would encourage you to be concerned with your own faith and whether or not yours is really strong rather than being concerned with what I'm believing in. My belief's not going to affect your salvation(or lack thereof), and yours certainly won't affect mine.

"Don't confuse me with your logic and reason, I've already got my mind made up." My friend Logan said that, and I find it quite pertinant to most things in life, especially this thread.

[TomStrife]

I deeply aplogize for acting like a jerk and getting Scientology and your faith mixed up. HOWEVER, our beliefs do contradict. I have NOT read the Book Of Mourmon, but I do know a man, as I`ve said, who was once a huge guy in your religion and is now a Christian. I will ask him questions about how our religions contradict. Just be patient for a little and we can truly get this debate going, but I do sugest either making another thread for it or continuing thrugh PM.

[Tiffany]

I agree with the sentiment that since Catholics/Christians both believe in Jesus that they are the same religion, but different denomination.

When my maternal grandmother's family immigrated to Canada from Italy, they were devout Catholics, as most italians are. But they came to see the other sides of christianity, and decided after they were here they were going to convert to prodastant (I think? correct me if I'm wrong, they're all presbyterian/pennecostal now).

Their beefs with being Catholic were that you couldn't talk to God yourself, that you had to go through a priest to abolish your sins and give you absolution. I think I remember my mother mentioning something about "The Light" whatever that means.

Either or, yeah.

Both believe in Jesus, so they're both Christian... but different denominations. Yup yup.

[Pete]

Catholicism is a different sect of Christianity. The basic belief of Christianity is the belief in the existence of Jesus Christ (hence Christianity). However, the term Catholic is almost exclusively in reference to Roman Catholicism nowadays

Catholic refers to the Greek term katholikos, which means general or universal, in the essence that they all believe in the body and blood of Christ being the bread and wine. Catholics also believe that Jesus Christ had suffered and died to save mankind from sin. So, you have Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Asian Orthodox, Anglican,

There are several sects of Catholicism, but they believe different things, very slight in variation, much like Christianity believes in the same basic things but varies from sect to sect.

I know that with either Protestant or Lutheran religions, they don't believe in transubstantiation, meaning that the priest does not transform the host (bread) and wine into the Holy Eucharist, the body and blood of Christ.

Catholic Churches share certain essential distinctive beliefs and practices (though some Anglicans and Lutherans differ in regard to emphasis and particular pieties):

• Direct and continuous organizational descent from the original church founded by Jesus (see e.g. Mt 16:18).
• Possession of the "threefold ordained ministry" of Bishops, Priests and Deacons.
• All ministers are ordained by, and subject to, Bishops, who pass down sacramental authority by the "laying-on of hands", having themselves been ordained in a direct line of succession from the Apostles (see Apostolic Succession).
• Belief that the Church is the vessel and deposit of the fullness of the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles from which the Scriptures were formed. This teaching is preserved in both written Scripture and in unwritten Tradition, neither being independent of the other.
• A belief in the necessity of sacraments (generally counted as seven).
• The use of sacred images, candles, vestments and music, and often incense and water, in worship.
• Belief that the Eucharist is really, truly, and objectively the Body and Blood of Christ, through the Real Presence. Those that are quite distinctively Catholic believe that adoration and worship is due to the Eucharist, as the body and blood of Christ.
• Veneration of Mary, the mother of Jesus as the Blessed Virgin Mary or Theotokos, and veneration of the saints.
• A distinction between adoration (latria) for God, and veneration (dulia) for saints. The term hyperdulia is used for a special veneration accorded to the Virgin Mary among the saints. Some do not accept the distinction between hyperdulia and dulia.
• The use of prayer for the dead.
• Requests to the departed saints for intercessory prayers.
• Belief in Exorcisms

Catholics administer seven sacraments or "sacred mysteries", traditionally listed in the following order (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church):

• Baptism
• Confirmation, also called Chrismation (Eucharist may come first)
• Eucharist
• Reconciliation of a Penitent
• Anointing of the Sick
• Holy Orders
• Holy Matrimony also known as "Marriage"

Thank you Wikipedia!

I could probably look up tons of differences, but this is all I know off the top of my head and from wikipedia. I could have typed that all, but I'm lazy.

[Gorath Sodom]

For those of you who don't believe the Catholic Church represents Christianity, let me point out this fact:

The Apostles wrote the New Testament... AFTER they established the Catholic Church.

This thread might as well have been named the Apostles are not Christians, because that is what this thread implies (which is false). Thank you, and good night.

[Lethal Seraphim]

Originally Posted by TomStrife

I deeply aplogize for acting like a jerk and getting Scientology and your faith mixed up. HOWEVER, our beliefs do contradict. I have NOT read the Book Of Mourmon, but I do know a man, as I`ve said, who was once a huge guy in your religion and is now a Christian. I will ask him questions about how our religions contradict. Just be patient for a little and we can truly get this debate going, but I do sugest either making another thread for it or continuing thrugh PM.

As I said in my last post, I don't really care. I'm not interested in a debate about it. FYI, that man was always a Christian for many of the reasons that Pete just pointed out. Namely the thing about believing in Christ. He couldn't have left the LDS church to become a Christian because he was a Christian by definition when he joined the LDS church.

It's not really a debatable fact. Christians believe in Christ. I'm a Christian if I believe in Christ, whether or not you think so. It doesn't really matter what you personally may think about it, it doesn't really change anything.

That man was probably excommunicated from our church or left because he got offended by something.

I am no longer interested in discussing this topic with you.

Thanks to Pete though for making that big post and providing some helpful information. Also thanks to Gorath for clearing that up as well.