Free will.

[Lazer]

I've often considered the idea that free will does in fact not exist. Not that everything we do is predetermined but that we have no real choices in the actions we make.

Looking from a completely athiest point of view, and having read what I've read and considered what I've considered, I believe that conciousness is nothing more that specific alignment of neurons in the human brain.

That said can it truely be believed that one has control over ones actions?

If evolution of the brain from birth until death is controled mostly by environment , with a splash of genetics (also beyond ones chioce), then every desision you make is based entirly on past experiences.

Looking at the evolution of self and humanity from that point of view we have no more control over our lives than a rock can choose to tumble left or right down a cliff.

Free will or no? What do you think?

[BushidoWarrior]

Well, I'm an athiest. I'm going to have to go with no. I wonder though if someone would react the exact same way to a situation if it were repeated.

I do believe in free will. I think we're alone in this world with nothing guiding us or controlling us, making us completely responsible for our actions.

I believe that we have the power to choose. Other things affect this and our subconscious is swayed, leading to unknowingly making choices. But ultimately, I do believe that we are conscious beings with the power of choice. If not, then why would certain things exist?

[Angantyr]

Free will does exist to a point. By this I mean we have the will to do what we can do within our environment. But we do not have to completely free will to do what we want however we want. I believe the 2 most determining factor's are our genetics (Our natural instincts), and our environmental instincts. I see spirituality as a mixture of natural and environmental.

These are the aspects of the way we chose to live our "free will". Also in saying this I don't not believe we are all equal, but thats not to say some people are pure scum and others are more superior. More like we are different and have our own ways in which we should stick to.

Basically what I am saying is we are like in a game with many variables, different quests lead to different thing. And 1 tiny thing could quite possibly change your entire life. Here is a favorite quote of mine:

"Ultimately, we are all dead men, sadly we can not chose how. BUT we can decide how we met that end, in order that we are remembered, as men"

[Lost Sol]

Nicely said Wintermetal.

I believe we have free will. I don't see anyone forcing you to do something you don't want to. You have a choice to do it or not, depending on how you think in a situation. For instance, someone could have a good friend of yours as a hostage, your choices are, 1. do something reckless, 2. leave them (you cold son of a...) 3. Think things through before you act. These most likely aren't the only choices you can take, but whether you decide to do them is your choice, and your choice only. No one is forcing you to do it, just like no one's forcing you to read this post right now. Rules are set by the way people think, you either follow them, or you don't. Your choice.

What I believe that makes people think the way they do, is the way they were raised or what they were raised to believe, or what they themselves have learned through life and CHOOSE to believe. They can act depending on circumstances and what limited choices they are given in that circumstance. It all depends on how they think, and what they know they can do. I could become famous if I wanted, but that would be my choice to give it a shot, and someone elses choice to accept it, and help me out. But again, that all depends on what the circumstances are, and how one thinks about it.

[Snave]

No, I feel as though we are like the Sims getting played by God. Sad but thats the easiest way I can explain it. I feel that if you try to perform your own actions and act according to yourself, that you WERE meant to do that. You WERE meant to try and avoid being out of control. If that made any sense then to people who do not believe in it should hopefully agree

[Lost Sol]

I have two options for this thread. Post, or not. I CHOOSE post because it's a discussion, and discussional threads need posts! So, I don't think I was controlled by anyone buddy.

[Removed]

I think free will is merely a matter or randomness.

Every act of "free will" is like flipping a coin or rolling a dice and deciding what to do that way.

"Shall I drink a cup of tea or coffee? I don't know - I'll just choose one."

It's all about the probability that you'll take one course of action over another, you have free will in that way, but that's about it. You may not have free will to choose, but you do have free will to choose about.

So yeah, free will exists, but it's a lot more limited than we think.

Free Will (as an agnostic) has to exist. Yes there are things that make you do one thing or another, but your will is what makes you either succeed or fail (most of the time). Like I heard that people in comas, even though they seem to be dead in all ways, stay a live an wake up. I think that may be an example of will conversing with free will...or "the desire to do something without other things inteveining your descision" If that is a word, Lol. So i think there is a such thing as free will, just controlled free will. All of us are game whore's when it comes to life, but we are not yet computers.

[Tiffany]

I believe we have free will as well.

Unless you want to go really conspiracy theroist and say that our actions are pre-planned for us and when we make a decision that we're mearly being the puppets we were intended to believe. But that's a little far fetched.

If I wanted to kill someone, eat a hamburger, cross the street, finish higher education, it's all wether or not I personally want to do it. I do believe however that we don't have 100% free will, since there's laws preventing us from doing things that are illegal. But then again, you CAN do them, you just might have to go to jail if you do.

[Nin`]

Ah!

Sorry just found this and had to reply to it as it just so happens to be one of my mostest favoritest subjects to date...call it determinism, heh.

Free-will may very well exist deep within the nether regions of the brain on the Quantum scale, but if it does then it is deeply overshadowed by ones (genetic) deterministic nature, which pretty much speaks for itself.

But heres the problem, even the fastest neural event in the human brain functions at the millisecond level and human brains are several hundred degrees (310.15) above absolute zero.
Because the temperature of the brain is so high, the slowest quantum superpositions disappear in 10^ -13 to 10^ -20 seconds. This leaves a gap of at least 10^ 10 between the two. So whatever the brain's "quantum nature" might be, it decoheres far too rapidly for the neurons to take advantage of it.

Meanwhile, as I have frequently observed, we are rationalizing, not rational animals; and we cannot diagnose hard or soft brain failures or even changes for ourselves. This has repeatedly been proven at a physiological level. CAT and fMRI make it possible to analyse our brain in action. In 1985, Prof Benjamin Libet of Uni California did exactly this. He observed his research subjects' brain activity while his subjects flicked their hands at "random" moments. The significant finding was that the motion stimulus began about 300 to 400 ms before the subjects made a conscious decision to move. This demonstrated that when the subject "decided" that they would shake their hand, that the decision had already been made at a sub-conscious level - and that the idea that this was "random" was pure post hoc justification. Prof Alvaro Pascual-Leone (Harvard) later performed a number of related experiments designed to expand on these results. In one, he also asked his subjects to shake their hands, but only one at a time, and to decide which hand should be used only as they shook it. Dr Pascual-Leone used TMS to stimulate areas of the subjects' brains as they were making these decisions. The results were highly significant When stimulating one hemisphere, the subjects would use the other hand 80% of the time, whereas, when no stimulation was present, this choice would be determined by their handedness, with a 60% preference to the dominant hand. The subjects were completely unaware that their selection had been forced, and asserted that they had made a completely free choice for themselves. Even after the subjects were told that they had been influenced, they denied that this was the case, arguing that the choice had been theirs alone.
I'm going to suggest that "free will" (at humanities present state of evolution) is an illusion. We are simply slow, faulty, but massively parallel analogue computers with a very high noise level to confuse the issue. Our brain's principle task is to tell us that we are behaving reasonably under all circumstances, and it does that job remarkably well. Which is probably the best we can hope for, all things considered.

There is also a rather interesting new book on some sort of "dogmatic determinism" which takes on religion called Breaking the Spell. How exciting!


Lucifer
(Preparing plans for world domination...soon, very soon)

[Jin]

Originally Posted by Lost Sol

I have two options for this thread. Post, or not. I CHOOSE post because it's a discussion, and discussional threads need posts! So, I don't think I was controlled by anyone buddy.

How do you know that some higher power didn't make you want to post? You don't, it's impossible to know, as is free will itself. Just as god is impossible to prove or disproove, free will is as well. In no way can you proove that you made the decision and that it was not some higher power making you choose that. Just because you like the choice means nothing. Again, a higher power may be making you like the choice. That, you will never know.

[Fallen Penance]

Of course we will never know. But think about it; what is the more plausable theory? A higher intelligence controlling us or we make our own descisions. It's obvious. We are a spec in a huge universe, why would a higher form of intelligence bother to control us (If there is one). My view is this: We are alone on this planet and we always will be. Face it.

There is a similar thread to this called 'Fate'

[Nin`]

Originally Posted by Fallen Penance

why would a higher form of intelligence bother to control us (If there is one).

Perhaps out of bordom? Just for the fun of it?

Anyway it would not need a higher intelligence controlling us, but our very genes and evolutionary nature (again why such an entity is not needed); perhaps determinism would be worth looking into here for you.

While there maybe god-monsters (a possibility as quantum mechanics teaches us), I am unaware of even a theoretical possibility that any entity could exist in our baryonic Universe that we might refer to as a god/higher form of intelligence. If such a creature were to arise, rather than indulging in ungrounded speculation, we would examine the creatures' attributes - and if possible, establish an appropriate pesticide. Note that for every thing which can exist, there is some force which can disassociate it. In our experience, disassociation terminates processes. Note that while the idea of an "omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent being" may be a stable of a certain sort of science fiction, we have not encountered anything like this, and the things we are sure about (matter, energy and general relativity (and to a degree) quantum mechanics) mitigate strongly against us ever discovering anything like this. So don't worry about it until you have to :-)

Originally Posted by Fallen Penance

My view is this: We are alone on this planet and we always will be. Face it.

Difficult to really say; if you refer to Extraterrestrial life then "always will be" sounds a little harsh when humanity has such little scope in this respect. How can you be sure that such life has not visited us already?

Its something to think about.

Lucifer