gays

[TomStrife]

Please Jintatsu, please do not insult my religion. The Bible is God`s word and should not be thrown around like it is nothing. If you are not a Christian, you will not be able to understand what the book is speaking to you about unless you have someone interpret it for you such as a Pastor.

KOS-MOS, than you for making this thread even more comical at my expense. Please explain how I have been telling people what to do. I am stating what i believe and what I believe contradicts same-sex marriage or intimacy. I never said:

"I`m A Christian. I`m Good. You`re Bad. REPENT!"

Even as a Christian, I sin just as much as any homosexual.
You want me to go straight to the point?
I shall.

Without quoting Bible verses I will head straight to the point.

I DO NOT Agree with homosexuality. [PERIOD]

Homosexuals have as much a right to a normal life than everyone else. People only dicriminate them because they are too sexually insecure to cope with the fact that people are different to them.

[Chez Daja]

Well... looking over this thread, a lot of it is for religious reasons...

Heh... we're given options in life... I don't see why God should stop us making whichever decisions we want. No offence. But meh.

[Kinney]

I have millions and millions of bi, lesbian, gay and homosexual friends, I think I have more of them than straight people. Gays, bi, homo, and lesbians are really cool people when you get to know them well. I've seen like 3 gay marriages, and I really support them. Call me crazy and freak but I really see the deep passion and beauty in a gay love, the straight love is just boring. My bestest friend in the world is gay(if you guys know Steve, and if you've read my journal) and I still <3 him, his dad is really mean to him because of that. A while ago he was really sad because they were many guys in his 'hood and they were making fun of him because of his voice(if you know what I mean).

What I mean by all this is that, there is really nothing wrong with being gay, I mean...is it illegal? No! Is is wrong? No! Is it bad? No! Is there love? Yeah there is and that is all it should be about, isnt it?

[Leroy]

Hm. I don't like gays. They are just messing with the cycle of life refusing to stick to homosapien relationships. What's the point in ****ing someone that isn't of the opposite sex. Is it that great doing another dude in the ass? I'm sorry, It just doesn't seem like an appealing life style to me. To each their own, I guess.

[Jin]

Originally Posted by TomStrife

Please Jintatsu, please do not insult my religion. The Bible is God`s word and should not be thrown around like it is nothing.

Asking you to back up your points with evidence that doesn't rely on faith is insulting your religion?

If you are not a Christian, you will not be able to understand what the book is speaking to you about unless you have someone interpret it for you such as a Pastor.

Wow, that's pretty convinient. However, you are debating with non-christians, so your little "people that don't agree with me are incapable of understanding things" policy won't get you far.

Originally Posted by Jet

What's the point in ****ing someone that isn't of the opposite sex

The same point that causes strait people to have sex with one another even though they don't want a child: because they think it feels good.

[TomStrife]

Originally Posted by Jintatsu

Asking you to back up your points with evidence that doesn't rely on faith is insulting your religion?

Perhaps we should keep in mind that you called Genesis boring. I can agree with you the Bible is not the most entertaining book but I refuse to stoop as low as to tell someone of a specific religion that their book is boring. That is just immature.

Chez pointed out that God should not have the right to tell you what to do.

Man chooses. Heaven or Hell. God made you to make that decision.
To be homosexual is based on choice whether you believe it or not.

I also never stated the fact that homosexuals are "Different". They are living in sin. That would be like saying that people who are struggling with an addiction of pornography are different.

I just do not agree with their motives, I would never group them as a seperate group of people.

As for the Adam and Eve topic, that is off topic and perhaps should be adressed by PM.

[awall]

Originally Posted by Jet

Hm. I don't like gays. They are just messing with the cycle of life refusing to stick to homosapien relationships. What's the point in ****ing someone that isn't of the opposite sex. Is it that great doing another dude in the ass? I'm sorry, It just doesn't seem like an appealing life style to me. To each their own, I guess.

Precisely. To each their own. You find homosexual sex disturbing because you're not gay. So do many people, which is (one of the reasons) why there's such a strong cultural anti-gay sentiment. Heck, as much as I accept homosexuality as a perfectly legitimate orientation, if I were forced to watch two guys going at it, I'd find it to be quite the turn-off. Why? Because I, personally, am attracted to women, and not men.

So let me reiterate: it is possible to be personally repulsed by homosexual sex without disapproving of the fact that it occurs. I'll bet a lot of homosexual guys would look at a heterosexual couple doing their thing and think, "Man, I would so hate to ever have to do that!" That doesn't mean they disapprove of you; just that they aren't attracted to women and thus find the idea of having sex with one a bit disgusting.

The other common argument I've seen against homosexuality in this thread is that God disapproves of it in the bible. I'm not going to argue that point. I haven't extensively read the bible, but I've examined some of the passages in question here, and I agree that they pretty clearly express the fact that men having sex with other men is wrong.

That is if you believe that the Bible is the full, complete, and perfectly transcribed word of God. That is, if you believe that what God wants to teach mankind hasn't changed at all over the last several thousand years. That is, if you believe in that the Christian interpretation of God is the only valid interpretation*. None of which apply in my case. Personally, I believe that God doesn't hate people because of something that is part of who they are, something that they can't change. I believe that God wouldn't create people with certain sexual orientations and then condemn them for following those very desires.

*Yes, I know that many other religions also condemn homosexuality. My above views also apply to those.

And this gets into the question of whether homosexuality is a choice or not. Well, I agree that geneticists have found no evidence of homosexuality being a genetic condition. Does that mean it's not something you're born with? Perhaps. Does that mean it's a choice? I argue no.

I dislike the taste of olives. I seriously doubt I have a "doesn't like olives" gene anywhere in my DNA. But I never "chose" not to like olives; I just put one in my mouth one day and said, "This tastes terrible!"
I enjoy listening to trance. I seriously doubt I have a "likes trance" gene anywhere in my DNA. But I never "chose" to like trance; I just heard a song on the radio one day and thought, "Wow, this sounds really cool. I wanna listen to more stuff like this."
I also enjoy being attracted to women. It's been more or less shown that I don't have a "likes women" gene anywhere in my DNA. But I never "chose" to be attracted to women; sometime around middle school, I just noticed that, "Hey, there's something about that girl over there..."

The point I'm trying to make is that there is more to people than what their genes say. Are these extra factors innate traits, or are they the result of upbringing? I have no idea. But I argue that there is no conscious choice involved in these factors, and thus telling people, "It's 'right' for you to be attracted to women," is about as meaningful as telling somebody, "It's 'right' for you to eat this olive and enjoy it."

Anther argument I've seen in this thread: Homosexual sex is wrong because it doesn't procreate.

Simple answer: Masturbation doesn't procreate either. Does that make masturbation wrong? Should we persecute people who masturbate and deny them the ability to do so? If you think that sex gets special distinction because it involves two people, then replace "masturbation" with "oral sex," or "vaginal sex with contraceptives."

Sasquatch, you made some posts above comparing homosexuality to zoophilia and pedophilia. Let's say you're right. Does that make zoophilia and pedophilia (NOT bestiality and child molestation) wrong? Is it wrong for me to look at a zebra's behind and find it the sexiest thing I've ever laid eyes on? Sure, most people would find that a major turnoff, but remember what I said above - if you find somebody else's sexual preferences to be disgusting, that doesn't mean they're wrong; it just means that said sexual preferences aren't for you.

Sasquatch compared zoophilia to pedophilia to homosexuality. Let me throw something else in there that I believe falls in that category: heterosexuality. All four of these are things that affect one's sexual desires that some people may find absolutely disgusting. The difference is that the latter is shared by a majority of the population whereas the first three are not. If we want to go with the logic that being in the minority is wrong, then it is apparently wrong to be black, redheaded, left-handed, or male (I believe there's something like a 49.5% to 50.5% male-to-female distribution).

Regarding people who go out and rape animals and children... well I think most people will agree that this behavior IS wrong. Homosexual men who rape other men are also wrong. Heterosexual men who rape women are wrong. Rape in general is wrong, no matter who you do it to, and no rape is less wrong than any other.

Originally Posted by Tom Strife

Another way to prove it is if God made 2 men there would be no women.
If God made two women there would be no men.

You are entirely correct. That doesn't prove that homosexuality is wrong. It just means that it was necessary to start off humankind with two specimens that would reproduce. For all we know, Adam and Eve might have both been gay, but because it was circumstantially necessary that they reproduce, they did. To give a rather bad analogy, think about Starcraft: Your army starts out with 4 worker units, because they are necessary to harvest minerals you need for the production of other units. If you started out with 4 marines instead, you could never build anything else and your army would die off very quickly. Since your army was created with only worker units, does this mean that you should only build more workers and never build any marines? Of course not! God created a man and a women because otherwise, humanity would have had a very short existence, but that doesn't mean that it is necessarily sinful for two men or two women to be in love now that hooking up for reproduction isn't as necessary.

Okay, so now that I've made my point over and over, I'll qualify some of what I've said. While I do fully believe that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, I understand that there are people who do, and they have every right to believe as they do. Furthermore, I've noticed that many people in this thread express the opinion that while they personally do not approve of homosexuality, it is not their place to tell others how to live their lives. I can respect this viewpoint - I personally disapprove of many things people do as well, but so long as those people are not hurting me, I will not interfere with their ability to live the way they want to.

Sasquatch also made a valid point regarding homosexual marriage - while it is necessary (in my opinion) that homosexuals are entitled to full protection under the law, seperation of church and state dictates that the law should not dictate how and when religious ceremonies are performed. In theory, it should be the church's perogative to deny "Christian marriage" to whomever they choose. ... EXCEPT... marriage means something outside of a purely religious connotation. There are many companies, for example, that offer benefits to the employee and his/her spouse if the two are married, but not all of these companies recognize civil unions. Legally, if the person you are married to dies, you get all sorts of benefits, but the same does not hold true of your civil partner. While it is the church's right as a private organization to disapprove of homosexuals, it is NOT alright when this extends to anything outside of the church, and that is what happens far too often in society. Sasquatch, when you said that civil unions confer too many rights, did you mean that there should be governmental rights granted only to people whose sexual preferences match those supported by the church?

Finally, somebody mentioned gay pride above. This is one of the ideas that I am less fond of. As supportive as I am of homosexuality, I simply feel that it is not "wrong;" I don't claim that it is necessarily "right." Likewise, homosexuals are not "worse" than anybody else; but they are no "better" than anybody else either. I am all for the abolishment of anti-gay hatred. I support people's right not to be discriminated against. But all too often, the sense that I get from "* pride" is that people are claiming that because of who they are, they deserve preferential treatment. Many African Americans claim that because blacks were discriminated against in the past, they deserve special treatment now to compensate for what was done. Many feminists complain that women were treated unfairly in the past, and from this they somehow infer that women are superior to men. In the same way, I believe that while homosexuality is itself perfectly legitimate, being this way doesn't make you any better than heterosexuals. I believe it is entirely possible to be proud of one's own sexual orientation without necessarily going out and proving to others that your orientation is superior to theirs, and when just because a group is a minority doesn't make it okay for them to look down upon others.

As I said a paragraph or two ago, just because these are my opinions doesn't mean anybody else has to agree with them. In fact, I'd be suprised if what I said today actually changes anybody's beliefs, at least in a major way. Most people's opinions are strong enough in place that my forum post alone won't change anything. I'll consider this post to have had an unexpected benefical effect if one person even thinks about it for a little bit - even if their overall opinions don't change.

Also, in general I don't like to get involved in this kind of debate for precisely the above opinion. It would take quite a bit to convince me that my views are wrong, and I believe the same is true for most other people in this forum. As such, I probably won't post that exensively in this thread (beyond this post just to get my opinions out there), although I may reply a little bit from time to time. The thing is, as I said above people's opinions are fairly set on topics like this, and I see no reason why you should accept what I say with any more authority than what your pastor/priest/rabbi/holy book/mother/friend/tv-show says. Besides, it's not fun to hear your views vehemently disagreed with and because I don't want to rub salt around in here, I'd prefer not to have this kind of debate in depth with people. If you can respect me even though my views differ from yours, then I can respect you even though yours differ from mine.

Thanks for taking the time to read through all this.

[~WP-Night]

No problem, but is that some sort of essay or something?

[Bryan]

Hm. This is always a touchy subject. I'll just make my response brief...

I used to hate the thought of it, but as I grew older and matured, it stopped bothering me. Just as long as no guys are trying to hit on me or anything like that, same sex ****ing is really on the bottom of my list of worries.

I'll always be sexually attracted to women and nothing else. Two hairy guys slamming one another in the ass and drinking appletini's afterward is not my cup of tea. If that happens to be what you like to do, then do it and to hell with everyone else. If you like to point fingers at people who are different than you just because they happen to dig the same sex, good for you, too.

[Jin]

Originally Posted by TomStrife

Perhaps we should keep in mind that you called Genesis boring. I can agree with you the Bible is not the most entertaining book but I refuse to stoop as low as to tell someone of a specific religion that their book is boring. That is just immature.

You're honestly offended because I find the book of Genesis boring? Now that is immature. So sorry for having a differing opinion than yourself. All better now?

Originally Posted by awall

Finally, somebody mentioned gay pride above. This is one of the ideas that I am less fond of. As supportive as I am of homosexuality, I simply feel that it is not "wrong;" I don't claim that it is necessarily "right." Likewise, homosexuals are not "worse" than anybody else; but they are no "better" than anybody else either. I am all for the abolishment of anti-gay hatred. I support people's right not to be discriminated against. But all too often, the sense that I get from "* pride" is that people are claiming that because of who they are, they deserve preferential treatment. Many African Americans claim that because blacks were discriminated against in the past, they deserve special treatment now to compensate for what was done. Many feminists complain that women were treated unfairly in the past, and from this they somehow infer that women are superior to men. In the same way, I believe that while homosexuality is itself perfectly legitimate, being this way doesn't make you any better than heterosexuals. I believe it is entirely possible to be proud of one's own sexual orientation without necessarily going out and proving to others that your orientation is superior to theirs, and when just because a group is a minority doesn't make it okay for them to look down upon others.

Very good point. Any pride along those lines, be it nationalism, or otherwise spawns hypocrisy. It's fine to be proud of who you are, but that's no reason to force others to be as well.

Your other paragraphs (all 500 or so =P) also have merit.

[Chez Daja]

Originally Posted by Envy

Hm. This is always a touchy subject. I'll just make my response brief...

I used to hate the thought of it, but as I grew older and matured, it stopped bothering me. Just as long as no guys are trying to hit on me or anything like that, same sex ****ing is really on the bottom of my list of worries.

I'll always be sexually attracted to women and nothing else. Two hairy guys slamming one another in the ass and drinking appletini's afterward is not my cup of tea. If that happens to be what you like to do, then do it and to hell with everyone else. If you like to point fingers at people who are different than you just because they happen to dig the same sex, good for you, too.

Why can't more people have this attitude?

What bothers me, is...

We have nothing to do with others' personal life, so why do so many continue to put homosexual couples down? Why do we even bother talking about it? While yes, I finding this thread interesting, many seem to get angry, and the pure fact remains...

Straight people have nothing to do with the personal lives of homosexuals, or other straight couples. Unless the circumstances were difficult. I.E, somebody cheating, etc.

[Leroy]

I didn't say it disturbed me, or that I was grossed out by it. I'm just saying, fucking another guy in the ass is just not the way to go. What exactly attracts guys to each other? I have never found another guy attractive enough to wanna screw him.

[Plastik Assassin]

Who mentioned that anal sex is always involved with homosexuality?

People can still have a gay, momogamous relationship w/o anal sex. Sure, it goes with the territory, but I am sure that there are quite a few gay couples out there that don't practice that. Just like there are heterosexual couples that exist celibate. Being gay, and being male at the same time, is not a lock for having anal sex.