Abortion: Do you Agree or Not?

[Tiffany]

There's been alot of horror stories of women going to desparate measures to end their pregnancies. My friend told me about one girl who actually shoved a coat hanger "up there" to try and do the job herself. How desparate is that? It's sad really.

Although I will say that it doesn't cost anything to have an abortion up here. It's covered under our universal health care plan. On one pro-chioce site I was reading, it says that 300 abortions are preformed daily in Canada.

[Hecate]

I totally believe that, and they further hurt themselves by doing that.

when I got pregnant, the father wanted to punch me in the stomach and let my body abort it naturally from there, get rid of it on my own without seeking medical attention. I told him no way...and I didn't even know if I was pregnant for sure or not, because it happened in the first month when I hadn't even missed my period yet, so my body could have disposed of it without too much problem. Well...go figure...he's not in our lives...nor should he be. I'm proud I kept my son. As said before, he may be unplanned, but he's the best surprise that's ever happened to me.

Many women naturally abort their embryos within the first 2 weeks, without even knowing it, because it's just like another period when it happens that early. when a body aborts the baby on it's own....it's not always the mother's fault. Something just wasn't right and the body responded how it was made to respond. After 1 month, sometimes in the first month as well, it's a miscarriage.....just a nicer word for a natural abortion.

[Tiffany]

Yes, I've heard of women doing the coat hanger bit, falling down the stairs, hot baths (hot enough to scald skin) etc etc etc all to end the pregnancy. I've also heard ALOT of fathers who have wanted to punch the women in the stomach.

Just another reason (regardless of the morals of it all) why I think it needs to be legal and monitored in all areas. That way women don't have to subject themselves to that sort of thing.

[Hecate]

Well...no matter what WE think....the battle will always be there, and it'll probably be legalized and banned then legalized again many many times in the future. It IS a form of killing, babies can feel pain within the second month, if not earlier. It has blood in the first month, and a heartbeat can be heard using the external device by 10 weeks, internal device a lot sooner, like around 4 weeks I believe. Aeris had an internal done when she was in her first month and heard a heart beat...and to me...if the heart is beating...it's alive, and if you stop it, then it's killing because it doesn't have a living will yet. Sure, it may be a "vegetable" like some brain-dead people are....but with the sure chance to improve and live, why take it away? Brain-dead people can have a living will....tell them if they want their life ended if all they can do is sit and stare, not comprehending anything and not being able to move or speak and be fed with a tube. Babies can't have that. Babies can have dreams in the womb after a time, they react to bright light and can kick at things and suck their thumbs and even have periods of being active and sleeping. If that's not living, then none of us are.

[Tiffany]

Oh, it's living alright. I guess I just feel that it's still the mother's choice. It's her life that is going to be compromised. Sure, there's always adoption, but as I mentioned before, as speaking as someone who was adopted, I am grateful that I was given a chance to have life, but I wouldn't have known the difference had I not.

I guess that's why I see it differently. Hell, I was 21 months old when I was adopted and I don't remember a single aspect of it. Let alone when I was in the womb. Most abortion procedures want you to have the procedure done between 7-12 weeks of pregnancy. Before that they can give you a pill to abort it, and after than I believe it's a different procedure rather than the D&C.

[Hecate]

The pill doesn't abort it...just prevents the sperm from connecting with the egg, and if connection already occured then it doesn't let the cell bundle attach to the uterine wall, so all it is is a small bundle of stem cells being swept away with a normal period. The sperm meets the egg within 2-3 days of the love action....so in essence, the "morning after" pill prevents it, doesn't kill it.

I agree it should be open to those who believe in it....but this country is getting too big on convenience, becoming lazy. Fast food, microwaves, cars, clothes stores.....nothing but conveniences. The right way out is always the hardest way out....even if it means going through with it.

[hellbred]

Originally Posted by Tiffany

I am grateful that I was given a chance to have life, but I wouldn't have known the difference had I not.

This is what I stated before. You, the adoptee, would not have known otherwise if you were going to live or not when you were unborn.

However, an ex-girlfriend of mine was adopted and she was by far one of the most influential people in my life... I wouldn't be the same without her. Her parents could have easily aborted her, but they gave her up for adoption instead and she was adopted by a wonderful family.

So it's not always yourself that would change if you were aborted, but you influence and become involved in people's lives since you were given then gift of life. Even if you don't realize it.

[Hecate]

Yeah, I mean, you change the lives of everyone you meet....simply because oyu exist and you are there. Sure you may not grow up to be the president, or be someone who changes the nation or the world in one way or another....but you DO change the lives of those you meet in your life. You cheer people up, you hurt people, others learn from you and others teach you which helps them out by giving them pride in themselves, a feeling of accomplishment, which is soemthing every human needs to be healthy. Sure they wouldn't know a difference if you didn't exist, because there are others....but if you exist or not....things happen, people happen, and everyone alive today changes the lives of people the meet today....and not jsut in person. On the internet, TFF for example. If we weren't REAL humans...this place would be nothing. Without our variety of differences and simmilarities and different ages and genders from all parts of the world....this wouldn't exist as it is now without some of us, or even one of us, however minor or major the change is, or would be. If one fetus hadn't been aborted, it's possible they could be here right now, making everyone happy, some others upset or mad, making us laugh and think in other ways.....but we can't have the joy of their company because someone threw them away like trash.

[hellbred]

Exactly. What if certain people had been aborted. Einstein for example. It was his letter to President Roosevelt which recommended what enriched Uranium could do, and who had it already. Without that letter, Americans may very well be speaking German right now. Maybe not though, who knows.

The fact remains, there could have been people who have aborted their babies who could have given birth to the next Einstein... maybe the next idiot pot-smoker too...doesn't matter. They have the right to be alive if conceived.

[Hecate]

precicely. And if they believe in abortion SO strongly, and have the money for it, then they can become a secondary citizen of a country that allows it and get it done there.

Originally Posted by hellbred

This is what I stated before. You, the adoptee, would not have known otherwise if you were going to live or not when you were unborn.

However, an ex-girlfriend of mine was adopted and she was by far one of the most influential people in my life... I wouldn't be the same without her. Her parents could have easily aborted her, but they gave her up for adoption instead and she was adopted by a wonderful family.

So it's not always yourself that would change if you were aborted, but you influence and become involved in people's lives since you were given then gift of life. Even if you don't realize it.

that is very true. If you think about all the wonderful people in your life an then imajine them gone you will see that it does have an impact. Just because the problem is gone for you does not mean that for soemone eles. What is you just threw away someones chance for love? Not that you would know, but the sorrow that person felt would be known. You just never know about that stuff. Over course you can also say that if someone would have aborted , than maybe that person would not be alive an kill a whole bunch of people. Either way your gonna get something. And it is true that a mom misscarrages at least once. It just happens before you know you are prego. I should know. I did not figure it out until almost the end of the thrid trimester. Unless it is planned you wouldn't know. But that is "natures" way of aborting.

[Tiffany]

Of course people influence your life, but if it hadn't been her, it would have been someone else. You can sit there and know just how much your girlfriend means to you and yeah that's fantastic! I'm glad you met her.

But, you're forgetting the fundamental aspect. You wouldn't have known her. Who knows? If we want to get that particular about it, there very well could have been someone who was ever MORE influencial in your life and you don't know and/or miss it because they were aborted. But since that person isn't here, it's your girlfriend who now influnences you. It could be that if this other person was here... you wouldn't even WANT to know your girlfriend.

See what I'm talking about? Now you're getting carried away with the 'what-ifs'. Certain people come in and out of your life. Would you be willing to not have one so you could have the unknown? That'd be silly. You will NOT miss what you haven't known.

I know it sounds harsh, but geez. Gotta wake up and face reality at some point.

That is kinda true, but same goes with the bad genre of that. What if you had the choice not to bring a serial killer into the world, but you did it anyways? I see this topic has gotten away with me, but I still say it is wrong. If we all live in fear of a child then their is not going to be that much procreation. I want a child to live because I am living an out of curosey, I would want that other person to live an experience the good on the world. I still say that it is wrong. Whether you have a serial killer of a Dr. You are making a difference an allowing people to live..children to live

[Tiffany]

Definitly. I don't think it's "right" either per se, but people should be allowed to have the choice to do it.

No one knows if they're going to have a killer or a saint when they find out they're pregnant, but fundamentaly it all goes down to the individual, and what they feel that they want to do.

I can see what you mean about the thread getting away with you. It's doing the same for me!

[Hecate]

I think a child isn't a bad seed, CAN'T be. 1/2 of the way the act as adults are thanks to the parents. If you have a bad person, it's because their parents raised them wrong, not because they just ARE unless they're mentally sick, like, VERY sick. Brats aren't born, they're molded from the parents letting them get away with bad behaviours, or exposing them to negative things in life that become second nature to them. Like my baby's daddy. His mom is a weed smoker, always has been, and lets her son drink and smoke weed. Had she stepped up and corrected him from the beginning, and only smoked in private, he would be a much better person today. He also lives in the fantasy relm, th