Freedom of Religion

[TomStrife]

Originally Posted by Pie Man 360

Actually, Christians commited one of the biggest genocides against another religion and that was the Holocaust.

There have been other atrocities but the Jewish religion truly has had a hard time suffering through discrimination, Nazi oppression and now its fight against hte Palastinians which does seem to be easing off at the moment.

I would like you to explain to me what effect Christians had on this considering the fact Christians were nothing like Nazis.

One thing that I find quite annoying is alot of people I know believe that Christianity and Catholicism is a synonym. I honestly believe people who have that anology need to get out and do some research instead of sit on their butt and watch "Oprah" all day and just assume things like that.

Sorry....
Just had to stress that issue.

I have read into this a bit and i withdraw my statement. The Nazi's effectively set up their own religion within themselves and it is unfair to tie in this religion with Christianity. My apologies.

However, it is true in that many Christians throughout time have discriminated against the Jewish religion due to their differing beliefs. Even today there is the odd comment of anti-semitism flying around that came from christian mouths. Of course, the majority do not discriminate.

In addition, many muslims are not violent. If they were, we would be currently in World War 3 right now. There are the odd few who think they can make changes by blowing themselves up or by commiting acts of terrorism but ultimately it is leeding them nowhere except to a growing hate of islam from around the world.

[Jin]

Catholicism is still Christianity. They believe that Jesus was the Christ and as far as I'm concerned, that makes them Christians. Different denomination than the spawns of the reformation for certain, but still Christian.

Also, the nazis did have some connections with the Catholic church. They made some agreements and what not. Not that it's really relevant, but I wanted to clear that up.

Besides, evangelists can be just as violent. Bombing abortion clinics and gay bashing. The difference is that in the Muslim world, the church controlls the state. That, rather than the religion itself, is the problem.

[Sasquatch]

Actually, the majority of Middle Eastern Muslims support terrorism. While this certainly isn't a reflection of everybody in the religion, it is a majority. It's not "extremism" anymore when it's mainstream.

And while there is a small amount of anti-semitism in America today, it's not substantial at all, and it's usually not done or said in the name of Christianity.

And I wish you were right about Islamic terrorism only giving them a bad name. Unfortunately, all too many people feel that it has been "provoked" by the country that has done more for the Middle East than any other, the United States, and thus have turned their hatred towards us.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Jintatsu

Catholicism is still Christianity. They believe that Jesus was the Christ and as far as I'm concerned, that makes them Christians. Different denomination than the spawns of the reformation for certain, but still Christian.

Catholicism is not Christianity. Instead of being a denomination of Christianity (with their belief in Jesus), they are instead an entirely seperate religion, and should be regarded as such, with their manipulations of the Bible and faith in the Church. Many Catholic beliefs are nowhere in the Bible -- if they held Biblical beliefs, but focused more on some than others, they could be considered a denomination of Christianity, but that's not the case.

Besides, evangelists can be just as violent. Bombing abortion clinics and gay bashing. The difference is that in the Muslim world, the church controlls the state. That, rather than the religion itself, is the problem.

Very rarely is violence ever carried out in the name of Christianity. Ho many abortion clinics have been bombed? I can recall two, both blamed on Eric Rudolph. And while "gay bashing" is nowhere near violent, violence is carried out towards homosexuals, and sometimes in the name of "Christianity", but that's extremely rare.

[Jin]

Originally Posted by sasquatch

Catholicism is not Christianity. Instead of being a denomination of Christianity (with their belief in Jesus), they are instead an entirely seperate religion, and should be regarded as such, with their manipulations of the Bible and faith in the Church. Many Catholic beliefs are nowhere in the Bible -- if they held Biblical beliefs, but focused more on some than others, they could be considered a denomination of Christianity, but that's not the case.

You know, I'm not even going to argue this one, it just isn't worth it. Take it how you will.

Very rarely is violence ever carried out in the name of Christianity. Ho many abortion clinics have been bombed? I can recall two, both blamed on Eric Rudolph. And while "gay bashing" is nowhere near violent, violence is carried out towards homosexuals, and sometimes in the name of "Christianity", but that's extremely rare.

Those were just examples. And I literally meant bashing. My point was that the religions are just as capable of causing violence. The difference is in societies' view of what are proper means for a desired end. The more politically advanced western societies do not let religion have free reign, thus quelling a very large portion of potential violence.

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

Nothing changed. Christianity and Judiasm never commanded its followers to slaughter anybody and everybody who wasn't of the same religion. Some Old Testament punishments are "absurd" by today's standards, but they were realistic back when they were written -- and the Old Testament punishments have since been overriden by the New Testament, where forgiveness through Jesus comes in.

jews do not follow the new testament. so did the religion change or did the followers of the religion change it?
if God did set forth those rules and later send Jesus to bring forgiveness, odes that mean God changed his mind? if you believe in Jesus he was sent by God to change the fundamentals of a religion. if you don't then he was just another man who changed it to fit the times.

[fragdemon]

For those of you who say that violence isn't written into Christianity, I'd advise you to look into an important fundamentalist terrorist group. It's an incredibly fascinating case because it is both Christian (non-Catholic Christian at that) and it was located in America. As a general rule, people believe that the core values of terrorism won't be found in the American moral fiber or the Christian moral fiber, but these fundamentalist terrorists seem to have been acting on American/Christian ideals only:

"Captain" John Brown was a devout Calvinist who in his youth wanted to become a Congregationalist minister.

"Congregationalism" is a certain calvinist faith that was distinctive in the way that the largest unit of faith was the congregation. It was free from any/all interchurch politics Its most recognized adherents were the Puritans who settled the New England area, wore funny hats, and killed some old people for being witches (hangings and one pressing if I remember correctly).

A "calvinist" faith is a faith that derives its principles from the teachings of Mr. John Calvin. This includes many churches that were big in the US including the Presbyterian faith, Primitive Baptists, and Reformed Baptists.

To move on though, our boy Johnny was a big time abolitionist. So big time (his Puritan moral character simply did not allow for anything less than straight up action against slavery) that he moved to Kansas for no other reason than to affect votes and change laws.

His move seemed to have little influence on Kansas politics, as it became increasingly obvious that pro-slavery forces were the men with power. After the Sacking of Lawrence especially (you can find it on Wikipedia) he decided it was action time:

With a task force of wholly committed faithful men, John Brown went underground with the goal to "strike terror in the hearts of the proslavery people."

Their first action was to drag 5 pro-slavery settlers from their homes and brutally murder them (sorta reminiscent of the kidnappings that went on in the middle east). When I say "brutally murder" I'm not talking about cold, callous, and efficient. The 5 poor guys were hacked to death with broadswords (bad... ass... no?).

John Brown's followers were all hardcore devout (like Fundamentalist Terrorists in the Middle East), John Brown made them take oaths to be good Christians, abstain from alcohol, etc. (like Fundamentalist terrorists; I'm not quite sure exactly how well these dudes followed their oaths however, I'll look into it though). John Brown was fighting for the freedom of slaves from a much larger power (sort of like how Al Queda's main goal is to reduce outside influence on Islamic affairs... helping the "poor islamic victims" from the scary big guys).

Throughout his career up until the famous Harper's Ferry moment, he would root out pro-slavery guys (most often slave catchers) and kill them dead, I believe in that same hacking style.
___________

The fact is, John Brown and his team were incredibly ideologically driven, and the ideas were Christian ideas.

An aptitude towards violence exists in certain people despite their religious convictions. Almost every religion and every religious texts (especially the monotheistic ones... especially amongst them the Judeo-Christian ones, and especially amongst them the Islamic ones, I guess) can be interpreted in a way that allows for a morally justified sort of violence.

The just-war rules, the same ideas that governed the Crusades, can also be used to justify smaller more focused actions, what is essentially terrorism. As long as terrorist actions fit into the Just-War guidelines, they should be just as justified as anything else.

[Sasquatch]

First of all, John Brown was more of an abolitionist than a Christian, and his actions reflected it. Unlike today's Middle Eastern Muslims, their primary cause was not their religion, although they may have coincided. Further, they attacked those who contributed to the capture and trade of human forced labor -- not those who were of a different religion. Hell, many people in today's American society would find that acceptable.

You're right though, every religious text has passages that can be manipulated or misinterpreted to support violence. In most cases, this isn't so much the fault of the text, but of the "extremists" that "misinterpret" it. In Islam, however, when the majority of the followers of a religion support the "extremist" interpretation, it's not "extremist" anymore, it's mainstream.

And by the way, the Crusades were fought to recapture land that was invaded by Muslims, not to slaughter every Muslim they could find.

[fragdemon]

First of all, John Brown was more of an abolitionist than a Christian

If you're going to tell me abolition is not a Christian cause, than you must be out of your mind. John Brown was an abolitionist because he was a Christian. His good Christian morals simply would not allow another person to be subjugated like all of the slaves were.

Saying that someone was more of an abolitionist than a Christian is like saying someone is more charitable than he is Christian. The fact is, Christianity has a bunch of values that I believe everyone should be raised in. Applying these values can create a large amount of political positions.

I'm against slavery as well, because I'm an atheist Christian. The Catholic Church I attended was full to the brim with abolitionists. The lutheran church across the street is full of abolitionists.

I think it would be safe to say that most Christian Churches of every denomination nowadays support the abolition of any and all remnants of slavery.

[Sasquatch]

Originally Posted by fragdemon

If you're going to tell me abolition is not a Christian cause, than you must be out of your mind. John Brown was an abolitionist because he was a Christian. His good Christian morals simply would not allow another person to be subjugated like all of the slaves were.

As I said, their primary cause was abolition, not Christianity. Today, we view abolition as one of the values of Christianity, but a hundred and fifty years ago, many Christians also viewed slavery as Biblically justified.

To John Brown, Christianity was an excuse used to justify his actions for politics. To modern Middle Eastern Muslims, politics is an excuse to justify their actions for Islam.

[TomStrife]

Originally Posted by Jintatsu

Catholicism is still Christianity. They believe that Jesus was the Christ and as far as I'm concerned, that makes them Christians. Different denomination than the spawns of the reformation for certain, but still Christian.

Yes, also considering the fact that:

1) We have completely different beliefs of how you get to Heaven (already, completely different religion).

2) We believe Mary should be worshipped AMOUNG women not ABOVE women.

3) Christians are a LOT less traditional.

Christianity and Catholics have same similarities but they are COMPLETLY different in beliefs.

[Chez Daja]

Yes, TomStrife, I have to agree.

My mother was part of Roman Catholic Church. When she was young, she went to a very religious school, where she was treated strictly and taught about religion and it's traditions, which she tried to pass onto me, although I had to reject it for not finding it something I could believe in. She even keeps the same traditions she was taught as a young girl. For example, she insists on wearing a cross if she ventures into a church. My mother isn't greatly religious, but I think many things have stuck with her.

By the way, I feel Islamic and Muslim religions are barbaric and wrong in all aspects. I think some their beliefs are almost on the verge of sickening. It's a very upsetting thing to see in the religious world, we have to start wars for the sake of not believing in the same things...

Can't you just say you are Protestant then?? It would make more sense as protestants do have differing beliefs to Catholics although they are both Christians.

[TomStrife]

Catholics are not Christian. They are CATHOLIC!

I am a CHRISTIAN and our ways of living and beliefs are COMPLETLY different than those of catholics.

Two major differences in our religion are:
-Catholics believe that you need to do all these things to get to Heaven.
One of those things being you must do good works.
-Christians believe that all you have to do to get into Heaven is to believe that Jesus died on the cross on rose for YOUR sins so YOU can get into Heaven. You don`t have to attend a Christian church to go to Heaven. All you have to do is believe that and you`re there.

-Catholics believe the Pope is a perfect messenger of God that cannot do anything wrong.
-We believe he has made mistakes.

Funny, I`d assume if he was God`s perfect messenger, he would have lived a tad bit longer.

Lastly, I would just like to make it clear there are no divisions of Christianity.

Christians are of their own religion (being mine).

And don`t bring up Christian Science. That is a cultic religion that completely contradicts Christianity.