Black Sabbath were more influential than Bob Dylan.

The Waking Child · 03-10-2006, 05:20 PM

My threads rule: If you think lyric writing has anything to do with song writing, do not post. I do not care what the dictionary says, lyrics =/= a song.

Alright. So. I have made a controversial topic.

On one hand we have a band that single handedly started a genre, and a sub-genre within the genre, that ended up growing to epic sizes. They started what we know as metal.

On the other hand we have Bob Dylan, who started a bunch of people off on writing political lyrics. ¬_¬

Discuss.

postalblowfish7 · 03-11-2006, 10:46 AM

no - you're wrong. it wasn't just dylan's 'political' lyrics that made him so important - it was the impact of him going electric with highway 51 revisited, and the shockwaves that sent through music. before dylan folk was an archaic hippy's genre, full of lame songs about water lilies and the 1910's - dylan took the otherwise stale genre and brought in his unique voice and world view - and eventually electric guitars - which were considered blasphemy at the time.

if lyrics have nothing to do with songs (which is total bullshit) then black sabbath isn't half as shocking. without ozzy screeching off lines like "bodies burning in red ashes!" black sabbath didn't move the world any more than, say, deep purple or steppenwolf did. besides, king crimson is 1,000,000 times the band sabbath was - though i'll love sabbath to the end of time.

as for overall influence on music - i'm sorry, dylan made a bigger splash, straight up. you can't give sabbath credit for inspiring all metal musicians or anything, cause honestly led zeppelin had more to do with the future of heavy metal than sabbath did. dylan, however, has remained an icon for folk-rock, and really is at the foundation of a lot of american indie rock as well. i know you like metal more than indie rock but i'm sorry, as far as history is concerned dylan > ozzy.

The Waking Child · 03-11-2006, 12:27 PM

Alright, so I won't say that his political lyrics were the only thing influential about him, BUT I will say you are ****ing wrong about saying Led Zeppelin did more for metal than Sabbath did.

Black Sabbath were the first metal band. Without them, the entire genre would be non-existant.

Lyrics, have NOTHING, to do with music writing, which is essentially what I refer to when I speak of song writing. Lyrics have nothing to do with the music itself.

This wasn't even made as a serious thread, just something to show how I will be using the "thread maker sets his own rules" idea from now on.

Jin · 03-11-2006, 01:01 PM

I don't know between Sabbath and Bob Dylan, but Sabbath was much more important to metal than Zeppelin was. No one is more influential than the first band in a genre. It just doesn't make sense to say othwise. And if you think that Zeppelin is metal....then you need help.

TomStrife · 03-11-2006, 04:01 PM

That`s right. There is nothing more influencial than the description of torture, pain, darkness, and Satan. Such musical heroes.

Daddy · 03-11-2006, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir David

Lyrics, have NOTHING, to do with music writing, which is essentially what I refer to when I speak of song writing. Lyrics have nothing to do with the music itself.

Actually, it does. The only place that it has nothing to do with the song writing process is when the song is an instrumental.

Generally, when someone says 'song-writing', it's assumed to include lyric writing aswell. If you want to refer to specific parts; composition refers to the score, arrangement refers to a myraid of things (e.g. key signature, instruments used, tempo, etc) and lyric writing...Well..Is lyric writing

Jin · 03-11-2006, 07:50 PM

I think what sir david meant is that it isn't important in defining styles of music as any musical styles can have any number of lyrical themes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomStrife

That`s right. There is nothing more influencial than the description of torture, pain, darkness, and Satan. Such musical heroes.

Right, Changes is just so evil. That was sarcasm.

The Waking Child · 03-11-2006, 07:51 PM

... read my rule. Yes, I will be a stubborn **** about it.

Daddy · 03-11-2006, 08:44 PM

Instigating a stupid rule does not make you any more correct. That would be a logical fallacy.

Sir Kenneth · 03-12-2006, 06:21 AM

When it comes to being influential Black Sabbath and Bob Dylan aren't really comparable. Bob Dylan has been an influence on a spectrum of artists which is a lot wider than what Sabbath influenced.

But Sabbath on the other hand had a much more pervasive and clear influence on a specific genre.

The Waking Child · 03-12-2006, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daddy

Instigating a stupid rule does not make you any more correct. That would be a logical fallacy.

Oh sure it doesn't but it does prevent people who I don't want to post in my thread from posting in it.

My whole point though was that the lyrics have nothing to do with the actual music.

notthatihaveanyrealreasontousethreadmakerrulesothe rthantobestubbornbecauseithinktheirentireusageisst upid

Blacksmith · 03-12-2006, 07:53 AM

I definitely see what you're getting at. Lyrics are usually based off more beats (in my experience anyway), and the music is more detailed with the notes, cords, and harmony of all the intruments used within it. So yes, lyrics do have nothing to do with the actual music really. Hell years before when classical musical was made I don't think they actually added any lyrics to it, but still made beautiful pieces of art.

But it was probably inspiried by the Opera singers to continue this and it slowly turned into an intrument of it's own, right? I mean the voice can hit a note and such, so singing can be important if that's what you are trying to do. In fact I remember reading that "music videos" were inspiried by the theater of old Europe.

Anyway, I don't exactly get why you made this thread. It is definitely your opinion to believe Black Sabbath influenced many great artist today, but so did Bob Dylan. So did ACDC, Aero Smith, The Beatles, The Beegee's, Sex Pistols, Dead Kennedy's, and the list goes on. To simply make a thread trying to point out your opinion is kind of pointless really. Not saying you can't do it, but I just don't see why you put up the thread in the first place.

Though music before had great emotion inside it with the way each chord was played and with the addition of a greater emotion emitting from a voice creates a stronger energy. So even if lyrics are pointless, they really are powerful when sung by a unique singer.

Daddy · 03-14-2006, 09:55 PM

I'm baffled to think that you can seriously seperate lyrics from song-writing. Especially in western music. O_O
Oh well, It just shows neither of you know anything about musical processes.

Sir Kenneth · 03-15-2006, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daddy

I'm baffled to think that you can seriously seperate lyrics from song-writing. Especially in western music. O_O
Oh well, It just shows neither of you know anything about musical processes.

I think it depends on the artist in question really. Artists like Nick Cave (who I adore and worship) is an absolutely amazing lyricist and uses the music and instrumentation of his songs to underline the feel and atmosphere of his lyrics. That's what I love about his stuff, but when I put on Slayer, the lyrics just aren't nearly as important.

Daddy · 03-15-2006, 12:46 PM

That does not inherently detach lyrics from the song writing process. of course, you can always opt to leave them out. Actually, I'll this analogy - do you really think the average person is going to think "I wonder if they include lyrics" when you mention song-writing? Probably not - so why detach it from common usage?