Origin of the Universe

WEll I see what you guys are all saying...But I just read something about an ice barrier, but there are somethings I'd like to have answered...

1. If a giant rainstorm happened, why did it not freeze over like the Ice Barrier? Or make a new one?

2. How would waterXIce cause Oxygen, its not really a chemical Recation...

3. Same as two, but Plants make oxygen through photosynthesis, it started with small aglae, and it absorbed the carbon around, plus took in sunlight, then causing fresh air.

And also for the spinning thing, how would the fossils have been embedded if the Earth spun so quickly? Also wouldn't the gasses be taken out too?
And I'm not saying the BIble is Wrong, or Evolution is wrong, (or else I'd be murdered online, by millions of evolutionists/creationits) but you gotta open your mind to the other side.

[Sasquatch]

Originally Posted by Horyo

1. If a giant rainstorm happened, why did it not freeze over like the Ice Barrier? Or make a new one?

I don't fully understand this question -- and I'm not sure you fully understand the explanation earlier. Our current atmosphere has six layers. There used to be a seventh, made up of solid ice. That layer melted and came down as water, and that, plus the water coming up out of the earth, caused the Flood. And yes, after the Flood, there was a sort of Ice Age, but that's extremely complex.

2. How would waterXIce cause Oxygen, its not really a chemical Recation...

They didn't cause Oxygen at all. The ice layer in our atmosphere held in much more pressure than we have today. We mentioned Hyperbarric Chambers earlier. Studies have been done in large hyperbarric chambers, where plants were grown for a season instead of an athlete or injured person put in for an hour or two. (If I remember correctly, it was cherry tomatoes, but it could have been normal ones.) A tomato plant grew over a dozen feet tall, and produced grapefruit-sized tomatoes. This would make perfect sense, in the Bible and all other forms of science, as history proves that thousands of years ago, things used to be much larger. [TomStrife, you would know this. Didn't the Israelites bring a bunch of grapes (not "bunch" like a lot, but "bunch" like, well, a bunch) over the Jordan when they investigated Caanan that took three or four men to carry?] But yeah, Horyo, it wasn't so much that there was more Oxygen, only that the air was more compressed and pressurized, which meant more Oxygen (or Carbon Dioxide, if you're referring to plants) could be utilized easier.

And also for the spinning thing, how would the fossils have been embedded if the Earth spun so quickly? Also wouldn't the gasses be taken out too?

Good question. As TomStrife brought up, the earth is slowing down in its rotation. Which means billions of years ago -- especially if it was supposed to be much softer than it is now, as some claim -- it would have been spinning so fast, basically, nothing would have been able to stay on, including the planet itself. It would have torn itself apart and never stayed together, if it spun that fast. And even if it did somehow manage to stay together, it would have flattened out (because, as we know from basic physics, if you spin something, the center pushes outward) and we would be living on a giant pancake.

There are also issues about the moon. Not only is the earth slowing down in its rotation, but the moon is getting farther and farther away every year. Which means that even millions of years ago, the moon would have been close enough to flood the earth twice a day with tide. ("Tide" happens because the gravity of the moon actually pulls water away from earth -- or, depending on how you look at it, weakens the earth's gravity on the water -- but either way, the water rises because of the moon's gravity. If the moon were closer, the gravity would be stronger, causing the water to rise higher...you get the picture. Big flood. Every day.)

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

Good question. As TomStrife brought up, the earth is slowing down in its rotation. Which means billions of years ago -- especially if it was supposed to be much softer than it is now, as some claim -- it would have been spinning so fast, basically, nothing would have been able to stay on, including the planet itself. It would have torn itself apart and never stayed together, if it spun that fast. And even if it did somehow manage to stay together, it would have flattened out (because, as we know from basic physics, if you spin something, the center pushes outward) and we would be living on a giant pancake.

Ok but I don't think you answered my question, why didn't everyhting just fly off? Why do we have fossils? Gasses, oceans?

There are also issues about the moon. Not only is the earth slowing down in its rotation, but the moon is getting farther and farther away every year. Which means that even millions of years ago, the moon would have been close enough to flood the earth twice a day with tide. ("Tide" happens because the gravity of the moon actually pulls water away from earth -- or, depending on how you look at it, weakens the earth's gravity on the water -- but either way, the water rises because of the moon's gravity. If the moon were closer, the gravity would be stronger, causing the water to rise higher...you get the picture. Big flood. Every day.)

And the farther the moon departs, the Earth spins out of Rotation.

[Sasquatch]

Originally Posted by Horyo

Ok but I don't think you answered my question, why didn't everyhting just fly off? Why do we have fossils? Gasses, oceans?

Sorry, I thought I did. The answer to your question is because the earth never spun that fast. If it did, everything would have flown off, and the earth would have torn itself apart. That's one of the many flaws with the idea that the earth is billions of years old -- you're exactly right. If it were that old, it would have been spinning extremely fast (we're talking like three-hour days, here), and it would have torn apart. I think it would affect a lot of things moreso than it would fossils, and if the earth was spinning fast enough to prevent fossilization, there wouldn't be much left to die and fossilize anyway.

[OnOneRyder]

I don't understand you creationists. You use modern science to try and better your claims, but when they are proven wrong by modern science you fall back on the claims that it was an act of god. You say you cannot create or destroy matter which is true, but then you also claim that god create the universe. Who created him?

As far as the amount of water, I believe that is a matter of faith that God brought that much water forth and sustained them in the atmoshpere.

Ok, so someone proves you wrong with the same science you used to make your points stronger and you fall back yet again on the act of god theories? You seem to only acknowledge the obviously truthfull scientific theories and dismiss the ones that are yet to be proven and use bogus made up theories of how God was in fact the creator of such things.

I've used this theory many times before and I will again. The universe has existed for over 14 billion years, in those 14 billion years in which we weren't in a universal dark period billions of universes have formed. In those billions of universes, billions of stars exist. Many of those stars have planets revolving around them. So I ask you, in only the past 2000 years of 15,000,000,000+ years of existence on one of probably trillions and trillions of planets you think we've found the answer to everything?

Modern science has proven that the earth is in fact billions of years old by the expansion of the universe and carbon dating of rocks. Yet the bible claims it to be only several thousand years old. Why is this, why would God have created such things? If he puts these in to fool us, then he doesn't want us to find out the truth, he wouldn't want us to know about him.

[OnOneRyder]

Also, I just noticed in a lot of your posts you claim that the lifespan of earth can be shut down by proving that it would have had 3-4 hour days and basically spin itself apart. Though I'd bust out a little knowledge of local planets to prove you wrong. The earth in present day spins on it's axis at a speed of 1043.75mph over a 24 hour period giving it a circumference of roughly 25,000miles. You claim that a 3-4 hour day would spin it apart but look at the same facts for a neighbor of ours. Jupiter has a circumference of 298,000miles and has a day of 9hrs55mins. This means that it spins at 30,070.635mph. Factor in the how far the weight is dispersed in this planet and it shows that there is far more negative gravity working on it's mass than earth would have it experienced 3-4 hour days. In other words, the earth at 3-4 hour days would simply have drastically different weather patterns and most likely have a hostile environment uninhabitable by anything living.

As for what their made up of, gravity is gravity. Everything experiences the same gravitational pull compared to other things that have the same absolute mass. There is so much more mass in Jupiter that the gases on its surface would in fact weight very similar to the solid elements found on earth.

[Crazy Chocobo]

Originally Posted by Lady Ambika

I ask of you, PROVE IT.

You got proof? Show me proof. Nothing is plausible. We can only guess.

If it was a god, so be it. If it was purely coincidence, so be it. We'll never know. Believe whatever the hell you want to believe.

All we can say is, something happened a long ****ing time ago to create life. And here we are. Yeah, there's been some evolution. Or maybe divine intervention.
Humans used to be much shorter than today, for instance. There's proof of that. But we could have just as well been BAM! CREATED! as we could have evolved from a tiny cell.

Whatever.

Yeah, I agree with you. I don't think we will ever know the truth. It could have been God who created the universe or it could have been the big bang. I don't have a straight answer because I wouldn't know! It could have been either. It could have been created accidental somehow. I know the bible says about God creating everything or whatever but I don't entirely agree with it because I wasn't brought up religously. Don't bother arguing with me because I won't say anything back. These are my opinions and you cannot tell me what I should or should not believe in. Respect other people's opinions.

I've noticed people can't have their own opinions in here, they get told they're wrong or whatever. NOBODY IS WRONG! We all have a right to state our own opinion. People's posts are getting picked apart and commented on and people don't like that. Thank you for listening to my rant.

If God created the Universe, so be it but I don't know if I agree with it entirely, like I already said...it could have been anything.

[Blacksmith]

Couldn't resist...

[Cain Highwind]

Griffith, I don't mind the image, but please add a little more in your post next time, okay? This IS the intellectual forum for serious debates.

[TomStrife]

Originally Posted by OnOneRyder

I don't understand you creationists. You use modern science to try and better your claims, but when they are proven wrong by modern science you fall back on the claims that it was an act of god. You say you cannot create or destroy matter which is true, but then you also claim that god create the universe. Who created him?



Ok, so someone proves you wrong with the same science you used to make your points stronger and you fall back yet again on the act of god theories? You seem to only acknowledge the obviously truthfull scientific theories and dismiss the ones that are yet to be proven and use bogus made up theories of how God was in fact the creator of such things.

I've used this theory many times before and I will again. The universe has existed for over 14 billion years, in those 14 billion years in which we weren't in a universal dark period billions of universes have formed. In those billions of universes, billions of stars exist. Many of those stars have planets revolving around them. So I ask you, in only the past 2000 years of 15,000,000,000+ years of existence on one of probably trillions and trillions of planets you think we've found the answer to everything?

Modern science has proven that the earth is in fact billions of years old by the expansion of the universe and carbon dating of rocks. Yet the bible claims it to be only several thousand years old. Why is this, why would God have created such things? If he puts these in to fool us, then he doesn't want us to find out the truth, he wouldn't want us to know about him.

NAME ONE FREAKIN TIME I WAS PROVED WRONG BY YOU AND YOUR PATHETIC THEORIES!

Who created God? God is onmispresent. Let`s pretend God was created. WHo would`ve created Him, and Him, and Him, and Him? It would`ve obviosuly had to start out with someone who was always there.

He created humans so that our brains cannot comprehend His power.
Sometimes, trying to understand his power and confuse you.
Imagine this:
Living in heaven or Hell FOREVER.
Never ends.
Ever.
Your brain can`t handle it.
So far, everyone that`s tried to debate with me and Sasquatch has lost.

[Blacksmith]

I'm sorry, I just had to post it for the relevance of the thread. You can delete it if you want I was just posting it for laughs. HOWEVER, I will continue this debate. First of all...

Originally Posted by OnOneRyder

I don't understand you creationists. You use modern science to try and better your claims, but when they are proven wrong by modern science you fall back on the claims that it was an act of god. You say you cannot create or destroy matter which is true, but then you also claim that god create the universe. Who created him?

First of all, science cannot explain EVERYTHING in this world. So basically looking towards another source such as a god or religion or supernatural forces can be more logical...some times. But tell me this. How could a god create itself? He has obviously been here FOREVER. A god can't die buddy, he wasn't created and has the power of all knowledge and the power to do ANYTHING. So therefore your "What created god" is a illogical stupidity. You do know your science, I'll give you that, but don't tread on something you haven't studied all that much.

Originally Posted by OnOneRyder

Ok, so someone proves you wrong with the same science you used to make your points stronger and you fall back yet again on the act of god theories? You seem to only acknowledge the obviously truthfull scientific theories and dismiss the ones that are yet to be proven and use bogus made up theories of how God was in fact the creator of such things.

I've used this theory many times before and I will again. The universe has existed for over 14 billion years, in those 14 billion years in which we weren't in a universal dark period billions of universes have formed. In those billions of universes, billions of stars exist. Many of those stars have planets revolving around them. So I ask you, in only the past 2000 years of 15,000,000,000+ years of existence on one of probably trillions and trillions of planets you think we've found the answer to everything?

Modern science has proven that the earth is in fact billions of years old by the expansion of the universe and carbon dating of rocks. Yet the bible claims it to be only several thousand years old. Why is this, why would God have created such things? If he puts these in to fool us, then he doesn't want us to find out the truth, he wouldn't want us to know about him.

The second paragraph basically repeats the first paragraph, so I won't repeat what I just said already. But I will say this...well actually I already did but science and religion do NOT go together. Know why? I'm sure you do. But what takes faith cannot be proven, but it cannot be unproven either because either it's true or it's not. As for science "proving" how old the universe or earth is, is basically bullshit. You can't look at a bunch of stars, guess what chemicals they have in themselves, and then say "Yeah that's 2 million years old right there!" Same goes for the earth. I always hear scientist say they've created machines or programs that gave POSSIBLE answers to how old something is, and possible isn't truth, (which I also said before.) So basically no one knows how old anything is, they just claim they do.

Here's a scientific fact for you also...NOTHING IS 100% CERTAIN! I mean you can guess or predict the attack of your enemy but you still know there is a chance he may attack a different way. So basically since people "think" something is how old, or how it was created, it's still theories itself. And for that last part of your last paragraph is complete bullshit. IF there is a god, what I've understood is he created the bible to not only understand what happened in the beginning, to his diciplies, to jesus, and to many other characters but the morals of their lives. That is what the bible is, a guide to how to live. It's not a science book you can simple pry open and see how old the earth is. It gives us lessons and princples for us to understand and to become wiser.

Evolutionist are so sad these days. At least Darwin was mature about his own theory.

§ Artist of blood stained walls

But I thought for something there is a cause, it just seems illogical, as I saw online...

Nothing is Forever.
God is forever.
God is nothing.

NOT MY IDEA DON'T HURT ME!!
And its just like the Greeks, they blamed the natural occurences on their gods, however science has proved them wrong. So how can you fall back on your religion, when it may be proven wrong in the future? Maybe we can't prove something the Creationist said as wrong, but maybe later we can.

Like I said, I'm not an Anti-Christian or any of that, I do not go around insulting religions, just stating an opinion and would appreciate it if some people keep their strong feelings from us, like Sasquatch, his posts are friendly still explaining what he believs, but in a nice way.

[OnOneRyder]

This topic has been done to death on these forums. The only difference between then and now is that the people before you have provided valid evidence to support their claims. You have just been throwing out things you assume to be true and expect me to accept them as evidence. You and Sasquatch haven't won anything. Sasquatch put up a good argument, you simply picked off the scraps.