Ultimecia and Rinoa look alike

[Crazy Chocobo]

On the last post I made in this thread, I couldn't decide whether I thought Rinoa was Ultimecia or not. I have been thinking over the last couple of days and a few theories have came to mind and it becomes more and more suspicious as I think about it.

Porcelain has some very interesting theories about the matter. Like about Griever. How would Ulty know about Griever in the first place? Rinoa was given a replica of the ring Squall wears in the second disc. There may have been a purpose to that... but then again.. maybe not, we can't prove that.

Some things don't make sense if she is Ulty. Like the fact that Rinoa and the gang kill Ulty when they go to the future. Why would she kill herself?

This is a really interesting topic. I say she is Ultimecia but them looking alike could be mere coincedence!

[gfmaster9999]

Originally Posted by Vahn70

Well if you are an evil sorceress who is trying to achieve time compression wouldn't you have already solved that problem? she's a sorceress she could do anything her spirit may comeback and take over another body like in some anime or cartoon or whatever. I have some points my self. Like there is no answer to why ultimecia wants to achieve time compression right then what if she wants to see squall again then thats her reasonbut she can't remember Sqwuall anymore because of her anger of seeDs'.

That doesn't make any sense... You're not saying anything to prove me wrong, Making a refrence to an anime doesnt tell you me anything about Ultimecia and Rinoa.

[Palazzo]

Originally Posted by ~Crazy Chocobo~

Some things don't make sense if she is Ulty. Like the fact that Rinoa and the gang kill Ulty when they go to the future. Why would she kill herself?

Rinoa obviously doesn't knows she's Ultimecia.

What you guys are failing to understand is that If Ultimecia was Rinoa than she would not risk killing her self in the past until the time compression was complete... If she killed her self from the past than the so called Ultimecia-Rinoa would not be able to exist... It's a time Paradox... Like in back to the Future when Marty changed his parents history... and he was never born....

She knew she wasn't going to die. She was Rinoa, so obviously she knew Squall was going to save her.

She needed her to release Adel anyway.

[gfmaster9999]

Good point... But she still would not have risked it.... What if something went wrong. I am not pretending to be an expert when it comes to time travel and Paradox's but you would think if she meddeld with time she might have changed something. Would you realy risk your life for some stupid time compression or would you think things througs.... Really now be honest.

[LocoColt04]

Rapps, please put more content into your posts. Simply quoting the person above you and saying "yeah!" doesn't add anything to the threads. It's spam, and if it continues, we may have to issue warnings. The idea behind being on a message board is to convey a message of your own, not to restate what everyone else has already said with a simple "I agree!"

sorry, i forgot. But then, almost everyone was doing it still. Anyhow, in reply to gfmaster9999, if she wanted time compression, and knew how to use it (and she can since she's a sorceress), so it's doubtful anything can go awry. And even if it did, she wouldn't care, because nuttin' is sacred to an evil sorceress who don't give a hang over what happens.

http://www.balamb.org/ultimecia/

A website giving some good reasons in support of the theory. I ran into this site years ago, and I forgot about it until I saw this topic.

[gfmaster9999]

In Reply to Rapps

All that you're giving me are little words like "doubtful" that In my opinion tells the reader nothing that prooves anything. Ill try to thuroghly explain what is going through my mind right now... If it comes out wrong sorry.

Rinoa is from the past, Ultimecia is from the future. You are Preposing that Ultimecia and Rinoa are one in the same. I am perposing that they are different. your main points are

1. They look alike
2. The Griveiar Ring has the same name as the ultimate GF
3. She attempted kill Squall even though she loved him, because she forgot about everything when she became an evil soceress.


My explanations to the theroies

1. Square got lazy and used Rinoas charictor as a base for Ultimecia's

2. I don't have an explanation for this question alone so read on to #3 and i will explain it.

3. If Rinoa turned in to an evil soceress who forgot all she knew from her past (Like the love of her life Squall) she wouldent have a problem killing him because she didn't remember him. But If that is true that she couldent remember the name of his ring either. Now if Rinoa is Ultimecia did remember the ring's name than she must still have knowledge of he Love Squall. It does'nt make sense that she would Rember Squall's ring and not him. It doesn't add up..

Who is to really say what happened with Rinoa and Squall after the time compressed world.... No one knows... So everything I have just written is Theroy and no more. If you guys come up with any other Theroie's about Rinoa and Ultimecia being the same person I would be happy to prove you wrong.....

[Donnington]

Alright I'm stepping into this battle. And I don't believe Rinoa and Ultimecia are the same person.

Firstly, I don't believe they look alike, Ultimecias' face is more pointed then fat faced Rinoa. Also Ultimecia's make up means you can't really tell the shape of her eyes, thus making it difficult to actualy tell if they are the same as Rinoas' eyes
Secondly, Ultimecia wants to be alone. "Only she could survive ze Time Compression." I believe Dr Odine says something like this.
Thirdly, Ultimecia is not all powerful, just extreamly so. As such she does not know everything. This is shown by the fact that she doesn't get to Ellone straight away. As such she cannot know what would happen to Rinoa. This would mean that because she is willing to sacrafice Rinoa for Adel that she therefore is not Rinoa due to the Grandfather paradox effect.
Fourthly the theme of the game is about being alone.
-They are all (except Rinoa) orphans.
-Rinoa rejects her father
-Her father is certianly alone with out Rinoa, seeing as his wife is dead.
-Laguna is alone in a few ways, what with Piano Ladies death, Ellone missing and the pressures of being President
-Squall tries to be alone so as to be strong for Sis
-Selphie loses her Garden
-Irvine is a sniper, an intrinsicly lonely job
As such the fact that Ultimecia is alone is not because she misses Squall but far more likly because she is an evil witch living in a monster infested castle.
Finally, Rinoa and Ultimecia being the same person is never developed in game or by Square at any point there after. So because it is not in the story it can be assumed its not true and all this is idle speculation by fans with too much time on their hands.

The only points I can't refute are.
1.The Griever ring/GF (unless she happened to pick it up at a later date)
2.The fact that Rinoa has white wings at the beginning FMV/on her coat, Ultimecia has black wings and during the ending FMV Rinoas' wings appear to be turning black.

But those two points aren't proof in themselves.
So in conclusion the theory of them being one and the same is very flawed, and without irfutable proof from Square I just can't believe it.

Nice thought though, I prefer sad endings.

PS. This is the longest 'quick' reply I've ever done!

[gfmaster9999]

Originally Posted by Donnington

Alright I'm stepping into this battle. And I don't believe Rinoa and Ultimecia are the same person.

Firstly, I don't believe they look alike, Ultimecias' face is more pointed then fat faced Rinoa. Also Ultimecia's make up means you can't really tell the shape of her eyes, thus making it difficult to actualy tell if they are the same as Rinoas' eyes
Secondly, Ultimecia wants to be alone. "Only she could survive ze Time Compression." I believe Dr Odine says something like this.
Thirdly, Ultimecia is not all powerful, just extreamly so. As such she does not know everything. This is shown by the fact that she doesn't get to Ellone straight away. As such she cannot know what would happen to Rinoa. This would mean that because she is willing to sacrafice Rinoa for Adel that she therefore is not Rinoa due to the Grandfather paradox effect.
Fourthly the theme of the game is about being alone.
-They are all (except Rinoa) orphans.
-Rinoa rejects her father
-Her father is certianly alone with out Rinoa, seeing as his wife is dead.
-Laguna is alone in a few ways, what with Piano Ladies death, Ellone missing and the pressures of being President
-Squall tries to be alone so as to be strong for Sis
-Selphie loses her Garden
-Irvine is a sniper, an intrinsicly lonely job
As such the fact that Ultimecia is alone is not because she misses Squall but far more likly because she is an evil witch living in a monster infested castle.
Finally, Rinoa and Ultimecia being the same person is never developed in game or by Square at any point there after. So because it is not in the story it can be assumed its not true and all this is idle speculation by fans with too much time on their hands.

The only points I can't refute are.
1.The Griever ring/GF (unless she happened to pick it up at a later date)
2.The fact that Rinoa has white wings at the beginning FMV/on her coat, Ultimecia has black wings and during the ending FMV Rinoas' wings appear to be turning black.

But those two points aren't proof in themselves.
So in conclusion the theory of them being one and the same is very flawed, and without irfutable proof from Square I just can't believe it.

Nice thought though, I prefer sad endings.

PS. This is the longest 'quick' reply I've ever done!

Finaly Someone who agrees with me... I have been arguing with these people for a week... Thanks

[Palazzo]

Originally Posted by Kage

http://www.balamb.org/ultimecia/

A website giving some good reasons in support of the theory. I ran into this site years ago, and I forgot about it until I saw this topic.

Nice, thanks for posting that.

Some good points from that site that I want to bring into this debate:

Actually, they're all good points, so I'll post them all.

Fact 1: I believe that sorceresses do not age. Why? Because it never in the whole game speaks of any sorceresses dying. It speaks of adel being from the far past, yet she is still alive. Also, present day cid looks a lot older than present day edea. It is possible Cid was as young as Edea looks when Edea received her powers, making Cid age but not Edea. If it is true sorceresses do not age, Rinoa, being a Sorceress could live on and become Ultimecia.

Fact 2: It is stated in the game that in order for a person to become a sorceress, a dying sorceress must pass her powers onto them, in order to die in peace. However Rinoa does not become a sorceress in this way. She becomes a sorceress after you have fought Edea in Galbadia Garden. True you have to beat Edea, but she's not dying, nor does she die, it is never explained how Rinoa became a Sorceress.

Fact 3: Now I know what you're thinking, why would Ultimecia want to kill Squall if she's Rinoa? Well there are many indications why. I believe what happened to Rinoa was, she aged and Squall didn't, and eventually he died and she lived on. Unable to take the pain she became evil. It might sound a bit wayward but read this quote from Ultimecia just before she dies: "Teflect on your..." "Childhood..." "Your sensation..." "Your words..." "Your emotions..." "Time..." "It will not wait..." "No matter..." "...How hard you hold on" "It escapes you..."Time will not wait, no matter how hard you hold on it escapes you?" This backs up my theory of squall dying. she wanted to hold onto him but he died.

Fact 4: On disc 3, Squall says to Rinoa at the field next to the orphanage "I'll be here waiting for you I promise ... etc..." and suddenly the whole intro makes sense. Now is it just a coincidence that Ultimecia's castle is placed exactly next to this? You have to ask yourself, why the hell would Ultimecia park her castle there when she has anywhere in the whole world to put it? She is waiting for Squall at the field...

Fact 5: now you might think, why would Ultimecia kill Squall when you fight her at the end, surely this is what she'd have wanted, to be reunited with Squall. This is a valid point, however she does not recognised Squall is Squall, this is proven when Edea explains who she is, Squall approaches Ultimecia and she says "Who are you!?" (or something along those lines).

Fact 6: Now this is a big indication that its true: Rinoa 'borrows' Squall's griever ring, yes she does get Zell to make a copy, but she never gives Squall his back, this is proven at the field when Rinoa says "I have this dream, I get all dressed up and put on your ring... etc...". Just before you enter Galbadia Garden, you get to name the Ring, (the default is Griever). Ultimecia has a GF.......called Griever, (or whatever you name the ring). If you remember, you get Doomtrain out of Solomons ring. It's possible Griever is gained from Squall's ring, which Ultimecia would have if she is Rinoa.

Fact 7: Ultimecia has black wings, rinoa has white wings. There is a lot of emphasis placed on Rinoa's wings (on her costume, and limit). Black = evil, White = good. It would be a natural progression. That is backed up by these shots taken from the ending. It appears rinoa's wings are changing from white to black.

Fact 8: There are 3 Full Motion Video shots of Ultimecia in the game, all are at the ending, and last less than 1/10th of a second each, barely visible (did you notice them?). Why would square go to all the trouble of making the fmv if no one were to see it? Square aren't stupid, they wouldn't waste time and money for nothing.

Fact 9: Ultimecia LOOKS like Rinoa, they have the same bone structures in the face, and the same hair texture, Ultimecia however looks more evil, which would be included in the procession of good to evil, in Fact 7. Check the gallery in the Media section for more information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kage
http://www.balamb.org/ultimecia/

A website giving some good reasons in support of the theory. I ran into this site years ago, and I forgot about it until I saw this topic.


Nice, thanks for posting that.

Some good points from that site that I want to bring into this debate:

Actually, they're all good points, so I'll post them all.


Quote:
Fact 1: I believe that sorceresses do not age. Why? Because it never in the whole peaks of any sorceresses dying. It speaks of adel being from the far past, yet she is still alive. Also, present day cid looks a lot older than present day edea. It is possible Cid was as young as Edea looks when Edea received her powers, making Cid age but not Edea. If it is true sorceresses do not age, Rinoa, being a Sorceress could live on and become Ultimecia.



Quote:
Fact 2: It is stated in the that in order for a person to become a sorceress, a dying sorceress must pass her powers onto them, in order to die in peace. However Rinoa does not become a sorceress in this way. She becomes a sorceress after you have fought Edea in Galbadia Garden. True you have to beat Edea, but she's not dying, nor does she die, it is never explained how Rinoa became a Sorceress.



Quote:
Fact 3: Now I know what you're thinking, why would Ultimecia want to kill Squall if she's Rinoa? Well there are many indications why. I beli