Origin of the Universe

[TomStrife]

I believe in Creation, but I just wanted everyone to share how they thought the universe was formed without flaming each other.

(For some reason I have a feeling this will be closed in the future)

[Sasquatch]

I'm a Creationist as well. I find Evolutionism to be just as much of a religion as anything else. Evolutionism was a big test of my faith in Christianity when I was younger, so I decided to study both issues so I could find out for myself instead of just blindly following -- and everything I read turned me back towards Biblical Creation.

[TomStrife]

Well, amen, another believer.
I was born and raised in a Christian home and I was never taught anything else.
I just want to make a small point in the big bang theory.

The chances of matter coming together causing an explosion and having everything fit perfectly together like this is like the chance of throwing a bunch of peices of paper on the ground, putting a bomb in the room, and due to the bomb`s explosion having all the pages put together into a perfect novel and without a single burn.

I also am a Creationist. Six-day style as in the Bible.

Not raised in a Christian home so those classic arguements of stop "blindly following what you were taught as a kid" don't work. I have studied both views.

[TomStrife]

I study both Evolution and Creation. It takes a lot more faith to be believe in Evolution let me tell ya. I would feel odd if I decended from slime.

Ooh, it`s great grampa Camble`s Chicken Noodle!

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by TomStrife

Well, amen, another believer.
I was born and raised in a Christian home and I was never taught anything else.
I just want to make a small point in the big bang theory.

The chances of matter coming together causing an explosion and having everything fit perfectly together like this is like the chance of throwing a bunch of peices of paper on the ground, putting a bomb in the room, and due to the bomb`s explosion having all the pages put together into a perfect novel and without a single burn.

Agreed, the chances of the universe as we know it forming from pure chance is statistically low. But let's say there are an infinite number of big bang explosions. Each explosion has a different combination of factors leading to different outcomes. So all possible outcomes occur. Therefore, our universe is one of the stable outcomes. Now my knowledge of quantum mechanics is poor as I only read the most basic things about it two years ago, but I remember reading about quantum phenomena, such as electron tunneling, and when faced with a "choice" then the universe "splits" so all outcomes occur. If I've made a mistake then I'm sure you won't hesitate to point it out. I'd like to know for personal satisfaction. Of course, that's just a theory and is by no means fact.

It could've been a God, but I do not agree with fundamentalist creationism. I believe the universe is more than 7,000 years old and I also believe in the theory of evolution. It isn't debated that environmental adaptation occurs, however, changes from one species to another does seem to pose a problem. Because evolution is an ongoing process over such a vast time period, genetic mutations are likely to occur and while land animals growing wings is difficult to imagine, given the length of time for a small mutation to occur and develop I think the possibility isn't insignificant.

The "accurate" versions of the originally flawed Miller/Urey experiments produced poisonous substances, which would have been adverse to life. Darwin's "warm pond" theory has been tested and results are 'disappointing'. Here is the article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4702336.stm
So, I really don't know how life was created, but it would be a logical fallacy to conclude life was created by a higher order being.

I don't believe the universe is only 7,000 years old because I can see light from stars millions of years away. I posed this point to someone who was trying to convert me. He told me that God controlled time, just like the many instances he does in the bible. I followed up by asking why God would want to make it harder for you to believe in him. His reply: he wants to test your faith. I'm afraid that's not logically sound due to the assumptions. Anyway, I believe that carbon dating doesn't become defunct past 5,000 years, as was claimed in a fundamentalist Christian magazine I once read. There are scientific journals which claim carbon dating is accurate past 7,000 years, perhaps you'll find some articles in the easily attainable New Scientist, which I used to so avidly read.

This is a terribly popular topic, one which I spent much of the first of half of my last academic year discussing with some people I know. I'll stop now.

[Grizzly]

This kind of debate will get well heated once some evolutionist come in here. One thing though is I believe in neither creationism or evolutionism. However, I know a lot about both and can say each have holes, but to the reason why are completely different reasons. I should probably already back out anyway cause you get me going on the subject of both I can get pretty harsh myself. I'm more of a, as I said in another thread, anything is possible kind of guy. I have seen, done, and studied a lot of other things and I think there is just something more out there than a god or whatever. But I probably will never be sure of that, so I don't press on with it.

[Yuki-onna]

I ask of you, PROVE IT.

You got proof? Show me proof. Nothing is plausible. We can only guess.

If it was a god, so be it. If it was purely coincidence, so be it. We'll never know. Believe whatever the hell you want to believe.

All we can say is, something happened a long ****ing time ago to create life. And here we are. Yeah, there's been some evolution. Or maybe divine intervention.
Humans used to be much shorter than today, for instance. There's proof of that. But we could have just as well been BAM! CREATED! as we could have evolved from a tiny cell.

Whatever.

[Donnington]

Well this is an interesting topic.
First of all the idea of the elements colliding and joining to make compounds has been proven, I'm sure you have all done such experiments in Chemistry class. Also the effects of Gravity have been proven. I'm sure we can all agree on these two basic scientific points. As such a compound can there for attract elements to increase its size and thus gravity until you eventually end up with planet sized objects.
I know this is simple but bare with me.
This has happened billions upon billions of times creating the stars and their orbiting planets/ moons/ asteroids. So now we have the Universe.
For at least one (of the billions) planet its position was 91 million miles away from the Sun.
Regardless of the quantum theory and its multiverse, this could have happened because all it relies on is the simple interaction of particles and forces.

Now for the beginning of life bit.
On this planet (of billions through out the universe). The elements on this planet begin to interact with each (as they do everywhere), however it is a particular four elements Nitrogen, Hydrogen, Oxygen and Carbon. As these elements combined in various ways they created Cytosine, Guanine, Adenine and Uracil which when combined form RNA. This is the single strand form of DNA.
This new RNA strands began in liquids (because things don't move too much in solids and even though they can, it is less likely to in a gas). This is what is termed the Primordial soup. All of these strands then began to join, not through choice but through simple collision, just like in your digestive system. They began to lock together creating DNA.
Now I'm sure you'll agree all of this is plausible and provable through science by recreating the conditions as has been done.

So now for the hard bit, tissue.
Now we have this new DNA (now with Thymine instead of Uracil when you see the structure of Thymine you'll see it's not that different and when it comes to tissue it's more effective). As DNA splits and joins the position of Cytosine, Guanine, Adenine and Thymine create different responses. In our bodies these responses are protein enzymes that perform different functions within our cells.
Through these splits and formations the DNA formed what became the cell of an amoeba. This is through trail and error of sorts.
Now don't think that that amoeba was the single origin of life because it's quite likely that it failed. And other amoebas formed from the DNA.

Now if this holds true cell division and eventualy living tissue are a given. But lets face it I've made a little jump from DNA to amoeba, actualy thats a very big jump. Any one care to help me out?

I'm still very unsure...SInce both sides have equally fair logic.

Creation: Pros: This explains where we're from, and solves most unexplained things. Plus it gives us faith to understand after death.

Cons: If God created us, waht created god? Dont' say he was always there, because that isn't very convincing.
Everything happens because of a cause. Also this goes beyond human understanding. How can someone be ressearected after three days of death? Why after three? Questions like those, but I'm not trying to buthcer anyone's religion, just putting up idea, aNd please don't go, because he is perfect, because I won't be convinced that way.

Evolution/Big Bang.
Pros: It also explains where we're form how we were made, human understanding of certain matters is clarified.

Cons: The big bang is good but its not very clear, as in the chaose theorey, everything happens for a reason, why by chance? How were we lucky enough to have a habital enough pllanet, at a good distance away form the sun, with water, and oxygen? How was it that smallest life forms evolved into us?

Originally Posted by TomStrife

Well, amen, another believer.
I was born and raised in a Christian home and I was never taught anything else.
I just want to make a small point in the big bang theory.

The chances of matter coming together causing an explosion and having everything fit perfectly together like this is like the chance of throwing a bunch of peices of paper on the ground, putting a bomb in the room, and due to the bomb`s explosion having all the pages put together into a perfect novel and without a single burn.

Yes, good point, but I for one am an atheist and believe that the big bang was how life began.

There is a low chance that everything would fit together, but the universe has an unmeasureble life-span and enough space in it that the big bang could have happened billions of times a second until finally it worked. And just like evolution, it is pretty much proven, we just don't have the time or the resources to actually make it a law of nature. It's just common sense.(not bashing any religions) The only reason that Christianity is against most scientific theories is because they disprove the ideaology of God being all powerfully and mighty. Lets take Noahs arch for example, there is not enough water on this planet to flood the entire thing. And even if there was there would be so much water vapor in the air that you would drown from breathing. Another point is that how did Noah gather two of every animal in the enire world, and how did he fit them all on a raft. And again how did he feed them and keep the carnivores from preying on deer and such. He would have had to feed them every few days, and what did he feed them, he must have tracked down 100's of pounds of meat. And moreover how did he keep the meat fresh for 40 days.

There are so many holes in the bible that I could go on forever. However this little rant of mine was off topic, and I expect many angry PM's over the next few days. All I'm doing is voicing my opinion, so don't get hurt over the things I say. Hell, if I got mad every time some know it all Christian tried to force his beliefs on me, I would be in a constant rut.

Anyways, thanks for letting me blow off some steam. And I very heavily support Donns explanation. Donn, you argue the science part of it and I'll argue the common sense and religion part of it. Mines easier.

Originally Posted by Lady Ambika

I ask of you, PROVE IT.

You got proof? Show me proof. Nothing is plausible. We can only guess.

If it was a god, so be it. If it was purely coincidence, so be it. We'll never know. Believe whatever the hell you want to believe.

All we can say is, something happened a long ****ing time ago to create life. And here we are. Yeah, there's been some evolution. Or maybe divine intervention.
Humans used to be much shorter than today, for instance. There's proof of that. But we could have just as well been BAM! CREATED! as we could have evolved from a tiny cell.

Whatever.

Why are you taking the easy way out. This threat was probably made so people could come and argue there point, not come and say "OMG, this is stupid something happened a long time ago and no one will ever know" In fact with modern day science we could reinact this on an infidecimal scale, and thus prove its plausability.

[Grizzly]

Originally Posted by _Vapor_

Yes, good point, but I for one am an atheist and believe that the big bang was how life began.

There is a low chance that everything would fit together, but the universe has an unmeasureble life-span and enough space in it that the big bang could have happened billions of times a second until finally it worked. And just like evolution, it is pretty much proven, we just don't have the time or the resources to actually make it a law of nature. It's just common sense.(not bashing any religions) The only reason that Christianity is against most scientific theories is because they disprove the ideaology of God being all powerfully and mighty. Lets take Noahs arch for example, there is not enough water on this planet to flood the entire thing. And even if there was there would be so much water vapor in the air that you would drown from breathing. Another point is that how did Noah gather two of every animal in the enire world, and how did he fit them all on a raft. And again how did he feed them and keep the carnivores from preying on deer and such. He would have had to feed them every few days, and what did he feed them, he must have tracked down 100's of pounds of meat. And moreover how did he keep the meat fresh for 40 days.

And again I am here to the rescue. As for the "flood" issue scientist are always finding ways to try to make it untrue. If I could go get one of those christian scientist he could tell you different using the example of the Grand Canyon. It was not created by simple errosion and billions of years, it is possible there was a FLOOD. Oh and as for Noah's ark if you actually read the bible you would know Noah had built a boat that took him like a hundred years to finish...use your common sense, how BIG would that f-ing boat...AKA ship, be?

Originally Posted by _Vapor_

There are so many holes in the bible that I could go on forever. However this little rant of mine was off topic, and I expect many angry PM's over the next few days. All I'm doing is voicing my opinion, so don't get hurt over the things I say. Hell, if I got mad every time some know it all Christian tried to force his beliefs on me, I would be in a constant rut.

There is just as many holes in evolution as there is within the bible, as I had stated earlier. It seems to me as in being an athiest you are tending to believe all chrisitans wish to force their opinion on you and such. But anyway, onto the subject of "holes", I'll give you the biggest ****ing hole evolution has...HOW DOES NOTHING BECOME SOMETHING?! As Don said there were chemicals and such that apparently formed together until it created a planet, however the theory of the big bang is completely holey as a pair of my batman underwear my dog chewed up.

First of all there is no proof a black hole exist and that is what they say created the universe by exploding and forming it's chemicals and such into the planets, stardust, and suns today. However, where did these chemicals come from? Matter cannot form on it's own unless something is there. And what created these chemicals? If you can answer that to me I'll believe evolution entirely, but if you can't explaining how the living cells turned into fish, then mammels, etc etc means absolutely nothing.

Here is another hole I see also. When something is sucked up and then exploded in every direction do you know what happens? Take a carousel for example, one of those small metal ones you see at a park. Now let's say you put clothes, boxes, and a few people onto it. Then you begin to spin it as fast as you can until it reaches a speed where everything flies off. Due to the laws of gravity and such, where would they fly? In every direction possible. When something explodes it does not throw certain chemicals out together to create a small planet. In fact since this is "space" if something is thrown it will go on forever in one direction.

To continue, let's say the universe DID form. As I have read and heard, the planet was created from a magma core with it's 4 layers of magma and crust. But, where did the oceans come from? The earth was created by extreme heat and without water there in the first place you can't possible believe it was formed like it is today. But there is one thing that is for certain...none of us know these answers. Why? Because we weren't there. Analyzing rock patterns and shit means nothing because even if you have a machine that gives a "possible answer" it is not a complete answer. Evolution is a theory in which Darwin said himself, he never said it was true. Creationism is also a theory, but here is the difference.

Evolution is easier to believe because you don't have some god breathing down your neck, knowing what you're doing, and telling you sins ARE wrong. So you can live your life however you choose because you believe the earth was formed from chemicals that came from nowhere. Creationism is a religion and even though there is holes in it as well it's not meant for science, it is meant for FAITH. Faith is what make religions what they are. People believe in what they want to believe no matter what you say. You cannot compare religion with science because of course it won't fit. Science explains logic, but it does not explain answers in life.

Why are you taking the easy way out. This threat was probably made so people could come and argue there point, not come and say "OMG, this is stupid something happened a long time ago and no one will ever know" In fact with modern day science we could reinact this on an infidecimal scale, and thus prove its plausability.

I could say the same about you. You could be taking the easy way out because you don't WANT to believe in a god, you WANT to live in sin and do whatever the hell you want. If you want to argue uselessly and point out opinions since you have probably never read the bible, you might as well leave.

I rest my case. I just hope no one avoids my questions.