Attack at Puzzle's

[Sarah]

NEW BEDFORD, Mass. (AP) -- A teenager armed with a hatchet and handgun opened fire inside a gay bar early Thursday, wounding at least three people in what police are investigating as a hate crime.

A bartender at Puzzles Lounge told The Associated Press that the young man, dressed all in black, ordered a drink and asked if Puzzles was a gay bar. He finished his drink shortly aftermidnight, ordered another, then started attacking people, the bartender said. Three were hospitalized Thursday.

Police were searching for 18-year-old Jacob D. Robida, Police Capt. Richard Spirlet said. An arrest warrant sought to charge Robida with assault, attempted murder and civil-rights violations.

According to a court filing attached to the warrant, a woman in the bar recognized had recognized Robida as a current or former student at New Bedford High School. Acting Police Chief David Provencher said Robida had graduated in 2001 from the city’s Junior Police Academy, a “boot camp” that teaches discipline to 12- to 14-year-olds.

Early Thursday, the teenager was armed with a handgun and “some sort of cutting instrument” went he walked into Puzzles Lounge Spirlet said.

The bartender said the attacker was swinging a hatchet.

After finishing his drink, the man walked to the back of the bar where two men were playing pool, shoved one to the ground, then pulled a hatchet from his sweat shirt and began swinging at the man’s head, cutting him, the bartender said.

Other patrons tackled the man, sending the hatchet sliding across the floor, the bartender said. That’s when the man pulled out a handgun, he said. The gunman shot both pool players and also fired at a patron who was leaving the bathroom, hitting him in the chest.

“He was shooting at everyone,” said the bartender, who asked to be identified only by his first name, Phillip, because of concerns about his safety.

The attacker also shoved him before running out, Phillip said.

He said police found the hatchet and a machete in the bar.

Puzzles is popular with the local gay community and is listed on Web sites offering resources to gays and lesbians.

New Bedford, a city of 94,000 residents, is 50 miles south of Boston.

source

When I first read this story, I was completely shocked and outraged. At the time, though, I had no idea that one of the people attacked was a friend of mine. The rage and shock I feel from this is indescribable.

The kid was eventually found in Arizona. He's dead now, but not without taking two others with him.

My friend is out of the hospital now, but he keeps referring to himself as "Hatchet Head."

After having something like this happen, I can't help but question humanity. Why do people have such hatred in them? Why can't people accept others' choices and realize that the choice belongs to that person and only that person?

What are your thoughts on this and the subject of this breed of hatred in general?

[Sasquatch]

Ah. Another problem grows up to attack people. This raises many concerns.

A. Why the hell was he allowed to be anywhere near a gun? On second thought, how could he get ahold of a machete and a hatchet? If he's screwed up enough to have to be sent to the "boot camp" at 12-14, there should have been something in his record that says he's dangerous.

B. Why haven't his parents beat the living hell out of him? It's all too common nowadays -- most of these problems could be solved if the mother and father were competent parents.

C. How did a teenager order a drink? He should have been tossed out.

Of course, this'll raise even more attacks on "the religious right" and others deemed "intolerant". While I certainly don't approve of homosexuality, that doesn't mean I'm going to do something as extreme as attacking people just because they're homosexual.

[TomStrife]

I`m against it as well. God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve (Has used that joke multiple times).

I completely agree. There is no excuse to going that far.

[awall]

I don't think this thread was posted for the sake of debating the morality of homosexuality. I'd be shocked if there wasn't another thread around for that.

Several people were attacked with lethal weapons. Several people. Not gay people, not black people, not muslim people. It doesn't matter what kind of people these were; the fact is, no people should be attacked. Nobody should be subject to hate crimes no matter how right or wrong they are. Even if this bar had been a hangout for the KKK*, even if the people in this bar had been communists or anarchists or whatever other unpopular idealogy they had stood behind, that shouldn't change a thing. They were human beings, and like all other humans they have the right to exist and to live their lives.

Sasquatch and TomStrife: I'm not trying to imply that either of you were saying that the teenager was justified in doing what he did. I realize that both of you agree that hate crimes are wrong no matter how you feel about the group in question. I just wanted to make it clear that mass killings are wrong no matter who the victims are.

Sarah: I'm really sorry about your friend, and I'm glad he's okay now. I've fortunately never had anything this dramatic happen to anyone I know, but I know that I'd be just as outraged as you are. There's simply no excuse for this type of action.



*And for the record, my use of KKK, communists, and anarchists here was simply an example. I was not claiming that I personally disapprove of any of these groups (I may or may not), but I needed something to put there so I decided to choose groups that in general have a bad stigma associated with them. If I offend your beliefs then I'm sorry, and I really don't intend to give the impression that I am telling anybody else their beliefs are wrong.

[Sasquatch]

...

So you realize that neither of us said it's any less of an atrocity because they were homosexuals and not normal people, yet insist on "making it clear" that it wouldn't matter who they are? We realize this. While we both mentioned our views on homosexuality, we also both mentioned our views on this situation, which means we both realize the topic of this thread. You don't have to point that out to us. But thanks anyway.

I personally can't stand the idea of "hate crimes". Not the crimes themselves, but them being labeled "hate crimes". A "Hate Crime" isn't a mark against the crime, it's against the thoughts behind it. If I go out and kill a black person because I think he did something wrong, or he defended himself when I tried to mug him, or maybe just because I felt like killing somebody and he was closest, that's a murder. If I go out and kill a black person just for being black, that doesn't make it any worse, it's still just a simple murder. Tragic? Of course. Any more tragic because the victim is a minority? Not at all. Being charged with a "hate crime" has nothing to do with the crime itself and everything to do with your reason for committing the crime, which they have no right to hold against anybody in legal proceedings. If I'm racist, sexist, "homophobic", whatever, maybe I'm a jerk or an idiot, sure, but that doesn't mean I should get extra time for it.

awall, you're trying to make it clear that the victims of a crime don't make that crime any better, whereas I'm trying to make it clear that they don't make it any worse, either.

Yes, this is an atrocity. As has been said, several people were assaulted with deadly weapons. That's the beginning and the end of it. The victims' sexuality, though a part of the motive, does not make this situation any worse.

[Secret Azn Man]

As I was talking to Sis earlier about this, I simply can't comprehend any reason to commit this crime. While, I agree with Sasquatch in that hate crimes are no worse than other crimes of different motives, simply because all crimes are bad, still, I can see why people would feel that hate crimes are worse because the motives seems unjustifiable. If a man assaulted another man based on revenge, we might understand ther reasoning more, but if a man assaults another simply becausae the other person is different, is hard to fathom.

The attacker indeed was filled with hate as he has dabbled with naziism and has behavior issues. After the attack at Puzzles, he picked up a female acuaintance whom he later kills and then ends up killed in a gun fight with police after he shot a police during a pullover.

He clearly has issues.

[TomStrife]

Originally Posted by awall

Even if this bar had been a hangout for the KKK*, even if the people in this bar had been communists or anarchists or whatever other unpopular idealogy they had stood behind, that shouldn't change a thing. They were human beings, and like all other humans they have the right to exist and to live their lives.

There`s quite a difference between KKK and Homosexuals.

1) KKK kills people. They think killing blacks is "God`s will". being a Christian, I fins that completely ridiculous. If someone can point out in the Bible where it says to kill black people, I`ll agree.

2) Homosexuals defy the Bible as well. God wants a relationship to be shared with a man and a woman. Even though a sin is a sin, i find that killing black people is A LOT worse than....well....you get it...

KKK have commited crimes. Just being Homosexual isn`t a crime. IMO, it should be, but my opinion doesn`t matter.

Does it matter whta I think?: No.

Am I trying to change the purpose of the thread?: No.

Let`s leave it at that.

[Lethal Seraphim]

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

Ah. Another problem grows up to attack people. This raises many concerns.

A. Why the hell was he allowed to be anywhere near a gun? On second thought, how could he get ahold of a machete and a hatchet? If he's screwed up enough to have to be sent to the "boot camp" at 12-14, there should have been something in his record that says he's dangerous.

B. Why haven't his parents beat the living hell out of him? It's all too common nowadays -- most of these problems could be solved if the mother and father were competent parents.

C. How did a teenager order a drink? He should have been tossed out.

Answers to your qustions:

A. He probably stole these things, or procured them from friends/sympathizers. Also, if he was 18 anything on his record would have been invisible now, for the most part.

B. Because beating the living hell out of a child is not an effective parenting strategy. A parent who "beats the living hell" out of their child would be doing that child more damage psychologically(and physically) than they'd be preventing. While the parents may not have been competent, it wasn't because they didn't beat the hell out of this child. Also, maybe they did that and it was to no avail, hence the "boot camp."

C. It's not as hard as you'd think. I have a friend who is 18 and she is a bartender. There are a number of restaurants and places you can go where you will not be asked to show your ID before they serve you alcohol.


Having said all that, the burden of responsibility still falls on this boy. Even though the parents weren't competent, even though someone may have allowed him access to weapons, even though he was served a drink while underage, the crime was his to commit.

It's awful that he felt the need to do that. I feel sorry for him and his inferior understanding. I also feel very sorry that he felt the need to impose his will on other people. I dislike people like that guy.

Hatred's stupid. It's such a negative emotion and it takes such effort to exert it. I find that nobody is worth such trouble. That dude felt the need to get all worked up about whatever it was he was worked up about, enough to do what he did. That's so stupid. Completely foolish. He was wasting his time and his energy, devoting it to his minute cause, whatever it was. Such a waste of a human life. It bothers me that he decided to spend it the way he did, but all the while it still remained his choice to spend it that way. Go figure.

Some people make dumbass choices.

[Chez Daja]

I totally agree with Sasquatches' first post. How was this kid able able to do this shit? Maybe his parents were afraid of him, therefore making them afriad to enforce rules on him. As for drinking, maybe he looked old enough, of course, this not being an excuse for letting him get away with what he did. I'm just saying, maybe he had things to his advantage that made him able to carry out these attacks -- and did. To be honest with you, this story is an exact example of things that happen a lot, particuarly in America. It's inexcusable, and yes, people are filled with hate. I don't understand it, but it happens.

There's not much for me to be able to say, apart from this boy is a foolish, worthless piece of shit -- doing things like that... I wonder what fuels people. Perhaps stress at home or having been bought up violently -- maybe he inherited aggressive behavior from one of his parents - theres obviously something wrong for his being sent away to a child bootcamp in the past.

I don't know what's wrong with the world, nor is it my place to say.


- Glad your friend is okay now by the way, Sarah.