Final Fantasy and feminism

Ted Zanarukando · 01-01-2006, 05:02 AM

Feminism is an issue in my opinion, and it has to do with Final Fantasy in some way. For one thing, Final Fantasy IV has a reference to feminism, such as in the forest kingdom of Troia. I do not like Troia. There is a quote stating the feminist claim, which translates in the GBA version, "Women are far more civilized rulers than men." That is one Final Fantasy quote I do not like. Only a feminist believes a quote like that. Final Fantasy X-2 was criticised on feminist grounds. Some female Final Fantasy fans have feminist attitudes as well. I certainly would not want to live in Troia if I were in Final Fantasy, for I do not like matriarchy.

awall · 01-01-2006, 09:23 AM

Actually, I find that most FF's in the series tend to be fairly stereotyping and (in my opinion) insulting to girls. Every final fantasy game in the series has exactly three main female characters, and they almost always fall into three stereotypical roles: the pure-innocent romantic interest for the hero, the badass I-may-be-a-girl-but-I-can-kick-your-ass, and the cute, chiibii, I'm-in-your-party-but-I-behave-as-if-I-were-12-years-old character. Admittedly, the males also have stereotypical roles, but I'd find it refreshing if they could have a female character who breaks the mold once in a while.

Additionally, there's the issue of costumes. Honestly, what is with what some of these characters wear? Terra and Celes both wear Leotards; Selphie wears that miniskirt; Tifa has breasts that are so ridiculously huge that they'd cause any real girl to fall forward for lack of balance. And then we won't ever get into what the characters from the FFX universe wear. Heck, even the NPCs are victim to the plague of, "let's make all girls in the series eye-candy for guys." Braska, you claim that Toria (sp?) is feminist? I disagree; it's a kingdom full of bikini-wearing women. Every woman in the kingdom looks like an identical doll, which is just what some men would envision a kingdom full of women would be like. (Note I said some men; I realize that many guys aren't like that, so please don't get on my case by saying that I'm generalizing about all men.) Alexandria suffers from the same syndrome (at least the military, which is entirely populated by bikini-wearing soldiers), and then FFX again... geez... have you ever actually looked at what the female NPCs wear in that game? Some of them are decent, but the graphic that they use for the chocobo-loving girl you meet on the Mi'hen Highroad (I forget her name) walks around wearing a bra and minishorts. Then there's Dona (how does that stay on???), Yunalesca, the female Al Bhed graphic used for Nadia (and others), and... well, I don't need to make an exhaustive list to get my point across.

And speaking of that world, FFX-2 needs some attention on its own. I've never seen Charlie's Angels, but I've heard X-2 is exactly like it; scantily clad females run around saving the world. I know that this game was criticized as an attempt to make a game just for girls, but if I was a girl I'd be offended by this; two of the main characters behave like children, and the third is almost completely one-dimensional (except for her breasts, which are decidedly three dimensional). What ever happened to the idea of making a game in which the female lead(s) have a brain? Why can't there be a girl whose purpose is to be a real person, rather than just eye-candy? Terra and Celes were great, deep characters who actually had personalities, actually behaved like rational, intelligent adult; too bad their costumes were designed by male clothing designers.

Sigh... if guys want to stare at girls, there are plenty of places on the internet where they can do that to their heart's content. When I play a video game, I'm looking for characters who seem like real people, and real girls do NOT dress or behave like that.

End rant.

Ted Zanarukando · 01-01-2006, 04:14 PM

Final Fantasy's fanbase is historically and predominately male. Stereotypical roles are all right with me. I do not like for a game to appeal to a feminist either. Feminism is an evil social and political movement. I condemn criticism of Final Fantasy X-2 on feminist grounds, such as for T&A content (anything that is believed to be insulting to some girls). I do not like feminist fangirls either. I do not like for females to wear trousers either. Real women are not feminists. They have long hair and do not wear trousers or other masculine clothing. They wear skirts of any length. Women are not born feminists. They are taught feminism. There are some girls who like Final Fantasy X-2. Most young females dress like those in Final Fantasy VIII or X, and Final Fantasy reflects. That is like that in Japan, and Final Fantasy is based on Japanese culture. I like video games that may offend girls.

On a side, I was speaking of Troia from Final Fantasy IV, my first Final Fantasy game ever. The earliest Final Fantasy fans are usually male.

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When I play a video game, I'm looking for characters who seem like real people, and real girls do NOT dress or behave like that.

I do not support that message, and only a feminist gamer does. I am opposed to criticism of video games on the basis of T&A content (which is content you are referring to in regards to females in terms of dress). That is not the way of a real gamer, and that is like criticizing a video game for having lackluster or outdated graphics. Only a feminist criticizes a video game on the basis of T&A content. Not all female gamers criticize video games on such grounds. There are female Final Fantasy fans who like Final Fantasy X-2 and give it a fair or second chance.

**LocoColt04** · 01-01-2006, 05:18 PM

Whoa whoa whoa, slow the fuck down.

I was agreeing with a couple of the things you said until just now.

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Originally Posted by Braska Spira

Final Fantasy's fanbase is historically and predominately male. Stereotypical roles are all right with me. I do not like for a game to appeal to a feminist either. Feminism is an evil social and political movement.

Okay, so it's fine for anyone to stereotype people except for feminists? And why? Because they feel girls shouldn't be treated (and/or treat themselves) like trash? Because they don't like men who are in charge?

And for awall to say that he wants his characters to be a bit more realistic... that makes him a feminist for saying so? Braska, you're off your rocker. You started out with a few good points, but then you went off on some anti-feminism parade. I understand you're only continuing to support your own point, but you're not doing so with solid evidence any more. You're doing it with solely your opinion, which makes your argument completely worthless.

Ted Zanarukando · 01-01-2006, 05:25 PM

I am a liberal masculist. I am not doing this solely on my opinion. I am doing this based on scientific research. I have researched that feminism has negative effects on society. That following link will prove it: Feminism is indeed a farce. I am anti-feminist, but I do not hate women. Not all women are feminists. Not all female gamers despise Final Fantasy X-2 on feminist grounds.

awall · 01-01-2006, 05:42 PM

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Originally Posted by Braska Spira

Final Fantasy's fanbase is historically and predominately male.

Agreed. That doesn't mean that it will always be, nor that should be that way. Why shouldn't designers reach out to women as well?

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Originally Posted by Braska Spira

Feminism is an evil social and political movement.

Woah, woah... maybe we're not referring to the same thing. By "feminism," I'm referring to the concept that women have the right to be treated the way they like; they have the right to be respected as much as men; and they definitely have a role in society other than that of a sex object. In short, I'm going by the definition of feminism: "Feminism is the radical notion that women are people." I definitely wouldn't call that "evil."

By "feminism" I'm not endorsing things like S.C.U.M (google for that if you don't know what is). That's not feminism; that's chauvinism, which I definitely disapprove of.

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Originally Posted by Braska Spira

I do not like for females to wear trousers either. Real women are not feminists. They have long hair and do not wear trousers or other masculine clothing. They wear skirts of any length.

I hate to break it to you, but I know several real women who have short hair and rarely, if ever, wear skirts or dresses. Trousers are completely gender-neutral clothing. In fact, while there is such a thing as "feminine clothing," I don't think there really exists anything I'd consider to be "masculine clothing." Well, I take that back; there are certain sizes of clothes that are typically associated with guys' clothing and not girls', and mens' formal wear is certainly unique to guys. However, what I wear on a day-to-day basis (tshirts, jeans, shorts, tennis shoes, sweatshirts, etc.) could be (and often is) worn just as easily by a girl.

Actually, personally I think that anybody should be able to wear whatever the heck they like. If guys want to wear skirts and high heels or girls want to wear baggy jeans, it's up to them. But that point is sure to draw a lot more criticism than simply claiming that certain clothing is androgenous, so I won't extend this train of thought.

However, it seems that you believe that girls should follow society's "ideal" female model. That is, they should dress up like barbies and be nice and pretty and dumb and stay at home all their life to make their husbands happy. And frankly, that's a pretty chauvinist thing to say. Most girls (especially intelligent ones) wouldn't stand for those kind of limitations.

If that's not what you meant, then I apologize for putting words in your mouth. If so, please clarify what you mean. How far do you expect women to conform to society's ideals?

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Originally Posted by Braska Spira

Most young females dress like those in Final Fantasy VIII or X, and Final Fantasy reflects. That is like that in Japan, and Final Fantasy is based on Japanese culture.

Disagree. Suggest you try the word "some" instead of "most." And Japan is moreorless the same. In fact, in Japan, breasts are not nearly as much of a sex object as they are in the states; cheerleaders there (at least the ones I saw) wore full, long-sleeved tshirts along with their miniskirts. You'd be no more likely to find a girl dressed like Lulu in Japan than you would here in the states. Granted, I was out in the country, so maybe Tokyo is different, but I got the impression that Japanese girls were no more showy than American girls.

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Originally Posted by Braska Spira

I like video games that may offend girls.

Well I don't. And somehow, I don't think that girls do either, at least not the offended ones.

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Originally Posted by Braska Spira

On a side, I was speaking of Troia from Final Fantasy IV, my first Final Fantasy game ever. The earliest Final Fantasy fans are usually male.

Agreed. See my first comment.

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Originally Posted by Braska Spira

I am opposed to criticism of video games on the basis of T&A content (which is the content you are referring to in regards to females). That is like criticizing a video game for having lackluster or outdated graphics.

No, it's not like that. A game with lackluster or outdated graphics simply shows that the designers didn't focus as much on graphics as they did in other contemporary games. Perhaps they were focusing more on gameplay, perhaps they were rushing to meet a deadline, or perhaps they just didn't care. Whatever the case, outdated graphics are a case of leaving something out of a game. Displaying lots of scantily clad women, on the other hand, is a case of putting something in to a game. It is a conscious decision by the designer (or lead artist, or whatever) to add more T&A to the game, and therefore there is a reason behind it. It could be that they are trying to appeal to teenage guys who like to stare at video game women. It could be that they think women are more beautiful when they're half-naked. I've stated elsewhere that I'd prefer this sort of content not be in games; I'm claiming here that there is a great difference between critisizing a game based on what things are depicted vs. critisizing a game based on how things are depicted.

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Originally Posted by Braska Spira

Only a feminist criticizes a video game on the basis of T&A content. Not all female gamers criticize video games on such grounds. There are female Final Fantasy fans who like Final Fantasy X-2.

Correct, there are females who like X-2 and females who don't mind that sort of content in games. I don't dispute that; there is a difference in opinion between females just like there is a difference in opinion between males (such as the two of us). However, I think that in general females would appreciate FF's (or games in general) more if they were depicted closer to real people rather than sex objects.

There are girls on this board, right? If you're a girl and you're reading this, please post here and let us know your views on this topic.

EDIT: Braska, your last post wasn't up when I posted this so I didn't get to see the link. I'll just say one thing about accepting proof like this: always consider the source.

http://www.ukmm.org.uk/issues/masc.htm
UKMM = UK Men's Movement

Hmm... is it really that suprising to see that kind of paper posted there? If you can find a paper like that in an actual, legitimate scientific journal then maybe I'll start taking it seriously.

ShinRa · 01-01-2006, 05:59 PM

I'm not against it, I'm not for it. I'm not perverted, the clothes designers might be. This is why I stick to old school games. Nowadays, if you're caught playing X or X-2, people assume that you're perverted. Or at least over here.

01-01-2006, 06:49 PM

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I do not like for females to wear trousers either. Real women are not feminists. They have long hair and do not wear trousers or other masculine clothing. They wear skirts of any length.

You know, I haven't worn a dress ever since I was about 5 years old and I don't plan to in the near time future.

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On a side, I was speaking of Troia from Final Fantasy IV, my first Final Fantasy game ever. The earliest Final Fantasy fans are usually male.

This is true because, earlier on in the series, girls really never played video games. Even now, there are only a modest amount of female players in the Final Fantasy series.

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I like video games that may offend girls.

Heck, bring it on. If it offends girls? Oh well.
Personally, all you guys (no offense to others ^-^) should take some serious look at the new lead male character for XII. And I know how many guys like to nag on Tidus for being quite whiny and girly like...Van puts HIM to shame. So, Braska, if girls are not to wear pants; nor have their hair short...Shouldn't guys not have their hair long OR resemble the opposite gender? Pretty boys.

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There are girls on this board, right? If you're a girl and you're reading this, please post here and let us know your views on this topic.

Putting scarcely clad women in a game is to directed more male attention to the game. Not female. Even with X-2 having three female characters; there was enough skin to show that this game was intended for a male audience. It is a shame that Game Developers cannot try something new without having a HUGE fuss over it; you know? I realize that the women have very little clothing, but I have enough respect within the series to ignore that fact.
Truthfully, I wish women wouldn't be treated as sex objects but women should also not put themselves into that position. Both genders are at fault with this. You are a sad individual if you get your jollies by pixelated video game women wearing little clothing. If you want to play the games just based on that, then you should not be playing at all. Just to look at women. It is sad.

"But hey! She is being biased."
Oh no, I'm not.

Squall, Seifer, Tidus...I think they are complete pretty boys and I enjoy looking at them, but I don't base my entire opinions just on what they look like. If they have bare chests, hey, more eye-candy for me. But if there isn't, I'm not going to complain. I'm going to focus more on the storyline and the actual PERSONALITY of the characters; even the graphics; background and such; more than what the video game characters are wearing.

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However, it seems that you believe that girls should follow society's "ideal" female model. That is, they should dress up like barbies and be nice and pretty and dumb and stay at home all their life to make their husbands happy. And frankly, that's a pretty chauvinist thing to say. Most girls (especially intelligent ones) wouldn't stand for those kind of limitations.

Totally agree with that. (The latter part ^_^)

01-01-2006, 06:53 PM

Some guys are to feminine. I will admit, I act that way most times, but hell, it means that you have a soft side. And not being a hard butt all the time. MOst guys try to put on Mr. Tough Guy...but yeah.

But women are starting to play more VG than men are these days.

Ted Zanarukando · 01-01-2006, 06:55 PM

Awall, you sound like you advocate feminism. The feminism has turned its back on its original goal. I am against feminism, but I neither favor nor oppose stereotypical roles of females. Feminism is defined as "the doctrine that females should have the same rights as males." The genders are naturally different. Feminism is NOT compatible with the notion of egalitarianism. I am not against women going to the workforce, but I am against forcing women into traditionally male jobs that they do not want. Sadly, girls are taught that they cannot be both beautiful and intelligent. That teaching is deceptive. I am not saying that women are to be tied to the kitchen sink. Feminists claimed that women of the Victorian era are tied to the kitchen sink, but that is lie. I neither support nor oppose sexual objectification. I am not saying that women should stay at home all of their life, but staying at home can be fun. You have to realize that feminism is an insult to men. If men are to have long hair, they should wear it in a ponytail. Like I posted in my earlier days at TFF, I do not believe in romantic relationship in any way. Falling in love is not my plan.

Angantyr · 01-01-2006, 07:03 PM

This thread is stupid, no matter where you go people are going to attack you for something you cant help, as far as I can remember there is not a single black man on the LOTR movies, correct me if I am wrong, and it would be stupid to complain about it! They didnt want to have them in the movies so why should they have to? FF has girls coming that was cause thats how they want them to be potrayed in the game, I dont see why people can get upset over such stupid things