A, hopefully, intellectual politics thread.

Sean · 09-09-2005, 01:55 PM

For one thing let me say I'm a democrat, I've seen and read many stories of former repulicans who served in our war to come back democrat after the bullshit republicans forced them to go through, I've heard and seen letters from soldiers who say they have no respect for the man who sent them over to kill for the reasons they're killing for, and I've seen and heard many interviews with soldiers formerly stationed in Iraq, a few of whom say they'd face jail time over being redeployed to fight for a war they dont' beleive in.

So why are we in this war if even the men and women fighting it don't believe in it's justifications?

I'm not going to get into it hardcore right now, but perhaps I could get an intelligent insight from a Republican about why they like George W. Bush as president, why they wanted/voted for him to be in office.

I already know a lot of Republicans are going to dodge the issue all together and start to rip on John Kerry. I'm sorry, Kerry was a douche, but Bush is a ****ing idiot. "Fool me once, shame on... shame... shame on you. Fool me twice.................... well.... you'll never fool me again."

Let's all keep in mind what a wonderful buisness man George W. is. Every company he's had his hand in went broke, quickly. Except this war has bailed out so many of those companies it's unreal.

My cousin and her husband both voted for Bush, I got into many debates with them about Bush vs Kerry, or Bush vs anyone for that matter. They kept using the same reasons "tax breaks and the war in Iraq"

So the man starts an unjust war and he's automatically fit to be reelected because the war is conveniently still going on during elections? But the tax breaks for the rich, which my cousin and her husband fall under, is a pretty good way to bribe people, don't you think? Yeah, money blinds everyone. **** the thousands of civilians who died in Iraq, **** the men and women dying because of a war they don't want to fight, **** the people in New Orleans who died or just lost everything because of the lack of funding to repair the levies, **** the drop in public security by cuts of government funds to police departments, as long as I get less taxes. Right?

I've lost all hope for this country for reelecting a dipshit like George W. Bush. For a good insight on the workings of our country, and on Mr. Bush, I'd suggest you all watch Fahrenheit 9/11, and see a wonderful insight to the inner workings of our government.

LocoColt04 · 09-09-2005, 02:04 PM

I almost voted for Bush, simply because I wanted Clark instead of Kerry. But of course, in a 90% Republican state like Texas, my vote means jack shit anyway.

I won't watch Fahrenheit 9/11. Michael Moore is a douche, and is the worst excuse for a documentarian ever. He doesn't tell the truth. He tells HIS version of the truth, which is really only a half-truth at best.

As far as everything else is concerned, I was quite disappointed with both the Democratic and Republican platforms this past election. Every single stance was about money and war. People seem to forget that we should take care of our own before we take care of others.

edit:
And I see you edited the Fahrenheit portion of your post while I replied. Still, my point stands.

Lover Boy · 09-09-2005, 02:08 PM

Sean, as much as your idea of an intellectual political discussion would make me rock hard, it's not going to happen.

One of two things will happen. Probably both:

A bunch of Green Day (Or random metal band, they all suck equally) loving idiots will come in and set up their "BUSH SUXX LOLZ" camps....

Then some conservatives will come in and defend themselves as they have the right to, the kids will be immature, the Conservatives will retaliate, game over. Your thread is shot to shit.

Akira · 09-09-2005, 02:09 PM

Well although Moore tells the stories from his point of view, it still has some truth to it. Its up to you to figure out what is truth and what not and then make your own opinion. I hate people who think they understand the whole political standpoint in America merely because they watched Moore's docs. May I add that he at least admits to presenting them from his POV. The same cant be said about everybody.

I also dont really like the candidates up for election in Germany right now. Were heading for our next election soon and I dont really know who to vote since they all promise but cant deliver. Its all about voting the lesser of the evils.

09-09-2005, 02:18 PM

Hrm...I completely concur with Sean. Bush is not fit to be president. Look at all of his messes. If anyone is unsatisfied with the ones Sean has so graciously listed, PM or IM me, and I'll be more than happy to mail you a whole list of them. Bush isn't fit to lead a country, not any country, and especially not America. I'm not saying this because I hate the man, I have no problem with him. I'm sure there are plenty of people who choke on pretzels and start wars for oil. It's just that I hate the way he runs this country. And it's not even him that does it! As Sean has already mentioned, he grants tax cuts to the wealthy by removing vital funds from the needy. The amount of funds he's removed from fire stations is plainly horrendous, risking the lives of many, not to mention stiffing the firemen, who risk their lives to save ours.

But about Farenheit 9/11. Moore just made that movie to make some noise and get even richer. Most of it is propoganda, however, the sources from which he got his information are real. There a dozens of peole, high up in the government, who told Bush repeatedly about the terror attacks on 9/11, how they predicted and proved it was going to occur, but he just ignored it. Not because he didn't believe it, but he because he wanted it to happen. It's a very simple theory, one which politicians throughout history have utilized and proved very effective. Allow a little bit of terror to occur, to take complete and total control of the government. Even in Ancient Rome, the rulers allowed the invaders to burn a part of their cities in order to bring all of the people of their nation under their control. Bush did the same thing. By allowing the planes to crash, he uses that as an excuse, a platfrom to launch a war, initiate the big brother act, search peoples bags on the trains, deprive American of their basic rights and liberties whis the people of this coutnry have died and broken their necks for.

Sean · 09-09-2005, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LocoColt04

I almost voted for Bush, simply because I wanted Clark instead of Kerry. But of course, in a 90% Republican state like Texas, my vote means jack shit anyway.

I won't watch Fahrenheit 9/11. Michael Moore is a douche, and is the worst excuse for a documentarian ever. He doesn't tell the truth. He tells HIS version of the truth, which is really only a half-truth at best.

As far as everything else is concerned, I was quite disappointed with both the Democratic and Republican platforms this past election. Every single stance was about money and war. People seem to forget that we should take care of our own before we take care of others.

edit:
And I see you edited the Fahrenheit portion of your post while I replied. Still, my point stands.

Yeah, but Kerry was goign to strenghthen college fundings for students on the homefront and a few other things there, Cesar. Kerry had other plans besides the war in Iraq, all Bush ever went on to say was "Iraq Iraq Iraq War War War"

LocoColt04 · 09-09-2005, 02:32 PM

I know. I did vote for Kerry, after all. But along with him strengthening education, he was also hiking taxes. If people are going to raise taxes, they need to raise them for the rich. If I had two billion dollars in my back pocket, I don't think a slightly higher property tax on my $40mil estate is going to hurt me. Tax breaks for the rich is bullshit.

Jin · 09-09-2005, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anarchy

A bunch of Green Day (Or random metal band, they all suck equally) loving idiots will come in and set up their "BUSH SUXX LOLZ" camps....

Are you actually calling Green Day metal? lmao.
You really need to find something more productive than blaming every person that likes metal for every problem that arises. If you don't think the thread will work, why post? You're killing the thread yourself by adding that pointless bullshit into the mix.

On topic:

I despise the American political system. It's so misleading. People think that because you vote democratic that they're on the left. Guess what? There is NO left in the United States. To the rest of the world, democrats are center right, and republicans are helluva far right. And these are the only 2 parties that have a chance in hell of being elected. That's shit for us lefties.

I'm a socialist. Somewhere between libertarian socialism (I will not use the word anarchy due to confusion on some people's part) and democratic socialism. Now if you have the general stereotypical view of what that means, then I am hardly going to debate it. T'would be a waste of time. If you think that means I'm a Communist, you need help!

With this political stance, naturally, I hate Bush. Then again, I'm not a fan of most conservatives. I've never seen any of Moore's stuff, nor do I care too. I have my own theories about 9/11, but I am not going to go into them, one debate at a time is more than enough. Let's just say that it wouldn't surprise me if Bush's emergancy powers kicked in around the time he would be leaving his big, white house. Heh.

edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loco

If people are going to raise taxes, they need to raise them for the rich. If I had two billion dollars in my back pocket, I don't think a slightly higher property tax on my $40mil estate is going to hurt me. Tax breaks for the rich is bullshit.

Well said.

LocoColt04 · 09-09-2005, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jintatsu

I'm a socialist. Somewhere between libertarian socialism (I will not use the word anarchy due to confusion on some people's part) and democratic socialism. Now if you have the general stereotypical view of what that means, then I am hardly going to debate it. T'would be a waste of time. If you think that means I'm a Communist, you need help!

I'd prefer it if you were. In all reality, communism is the perfect form of government. It creates a utopia, where all can live equally.

Unfortunately, this is the real world, and human corruption ruined what could have been a perfect government. We're all too greedy for anything like a Utopia to EVER exist. And it's a shame, really. The Soviets (because yes, during that time, they were the USSR) had the right idea, but they just couldn't pull it off. No one could. And sadly, no one ever will. It's a shame, if you ask me.

Akira · 09-09-2005, 02:52 PM

Actually thats not true Loco. The Soviets lost their ideals with the deaths of Marx and Lenin. Stalin only used the Communist form of governemnt to control the populous to get them to do what he wanted. He even rewrote the communist ideals to "fit" better to what he saw to be as the proper ideals. He was no better than a dictator and gives a perfect exapmle of why Communism shall always fail miserably.

May I also add that I would hate to live in a Communist region. If you look up the true meaning of Communism (not the Marxist or Leninist version) it means to live in a "community", hence the name, where everyone gives the other his essential needs and there is no need for currency and the such. Everyone only has the basics. I say **** that.

Jin · 09-09-2005, 02:56 PM

edit: directed at Loco...and in some ways Kenji...if it applies, I didn't read his post yet, heh.

I'm afraid I must disagree. Communism in the USSR was not founded on the idea of a utopia. It was all a way for Lennin to get back at his enemies who wronged him. The bourgeois, the Tsarists, all of them. Communism uses a form of authoritarianism, not unlike the conservative method (keep in mind that there are levels of conservatism). The government becomes the new capitalist class that it seeked to destroy. The system, as it actually did play out, turns into a state capitalism that has even less freedom in it than a conservative pow wow. So really, the reason that communism fails, is because failure is internally encoded into its own philosihpy. Socialism CANNOT work with authoritarianism. The only type of socialism that has, so far, flourished is anti-authoritarian versions like democratic socialism or social democracy (although its ties to socialism is diminishing every day).